Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Nay
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000302B
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00:06 Welcome back to 'The Liberty Insider'
00:08 before the break with the Ambassador John Nay. 00:12 We were really talking about 00:13 how you project both national identities 00:17 and values and as a Christian. 00:19 Is there a certain parallel? 00:20 Oh, I think there's a lot of a parallels. 00:22 There must be and I've also tried 00:25 to make a connection to some of the greats in The Bible. 00:28 Which, you know, they're wonderful stories 00:30 we look back on. 00:31 But, those things have been repeated 00:33 before our eyes today. 00:34 Yes. 00:36 It's really Christian Stewardship 00:37 and loyalty to particular national viewpoint. 00:41 But what if, let's get it to a big hypothetical, 00:45 it's hypothetical because the U.S. is been 00:47 it's a liberal democracy. 00:49 It's staying quite true to the constitution, 00:51 but what if you were an ambassador 00:53 or a public official for a state 00:55 that then asked you to do, 00:57 or to defend something that was not even close 01:01 to your moral Christian Principles? 01:04 You know, it all depends what the issue is 01:08 and how I'm expected to defend it 01:11 and I think it would always have 01:12 to be on a case by case basis. 01:14 Now certainly, when the, 01:19 when the United States went into Iraq 01:22 over the recommendations of some, but, you know... 01:24 Ambassadors have resigned, haven't they? 01:26 Well, exactly and there were some ambassadors 01:30 who resigned and at one point 01:32 during that time, I was one a list 01:35 to be considered to be an ambassador 01:38 and I had to give some very careful thought 01:41 as to whether or not 01:43 I would be comfortable going out 01:45 and representing the United States... 01:49 In that particular situation. As ambassador during that time. 01:53 As it happened, I then wasn't offered 01:55 the ambassadorship. 01:57 So, I didn't, I wasn't forced to make that choice. 02:01 I wasn't offered the ambassadorship 02:02 that I thought was coming through 02:04 and in fact things worked out far better for me 02:06 and I got sent to Toronto, but... 02:09 Well, may be God was guiding you 02:11 that you career little-- 02:12 Well, perhaps, but my view, if I had accepted. 02:18 If I'd been offered the ambassadorship 02:19 and had accepted it, I would've been doing 02:21 so on the basis of trying to repair the damage 02:29 as much as possible to the U.S. image 02:31 that invasion had caused. 02:34 But, as I said, happily I didn't even have 02:37 to face that choice. 02:40 Then again, if we were being asked to defend 02:44 something that was, is just out and out 02:47 wrong in whatever way, 02:50 then you have to choose to resign. 02:53 Of course, I mean the most extreme case 02:56 that usually people reach for 02:58 and then others gets mad for even mentioning. 03:00 You know the Nazi regime. Yes. 03:04 And at Nuremberg they hold officials responsible 03:08 because they're all said well, it was orders I was just told 03:11 we know at least from Nuremberg, 03:13 even though we seem to have forgotten 03:15 that in the world at large and the U.S. since. 03:18 I think it's a good principle 03:21 to be good stewards and be loyal subjects, 03:24 such a appropriate word 03:26 but, there's got to be line where you don't do, 03:28 what a State says on occasion 03:30 and there might be a consequence, 03:32 losing the job, resigning or whatever. 03:34 Yes, and that would be an easier consequence 03:36 of course than what some of those Nazi officials 03:38 would've faced because... 03:40 Well, they left it too late. 03:41 Yeah, they might have faced, 03:42 if they had chosen to say 'I'm sorry' 03:46 but that's not an order I can follow, 03:47 of course that could've been a death sentence. 03:49 But usually people get into this step by step... 03:52 It's not like some grand movement 03:55 they're on edge of doing all these things, 03:57 they've got a little bit-- 03:58 And so I think what's more important 04:01 which we've discussed and you understand this, 04:03 you have to have a strong moral campus 04:05 on whatever you do. 04:07 Yes. 04:08 And it's made easier by having a public role 04:12 in a country that has higher goals. 04:14 But there are Christians, even Adventists, 04:17 the work with some countries 04:19 that are not quite so altruistic in their... 04:23 Surely. In their aims. 04:24 Absolutely true. 04:26 And I think this is more than 04:27 a hypothetical for some of them. 04:29 And when I was posted in India 04:32 going to the same church that we did. 04:33 There was also an Adventist 04:35 who was the ambassador of an another country to India 04:39 and I was consulate general at the time, 04:41 we got to know him and his family quite, 04:43 well, I still count them as friends. 04:45 But, and actually the country 04:48 that he was from was, let's say, 04:50 at least a partial democracy 04:54 and he was a very good representative, 04:56 did very well and the right things 04:59 and his country was not a Nazi sort of country happily. 05:04 But I know that he would've faced 05:06 some difficult choices. 05:07 Yeah, could be very complicating. 05:10 Let me run something else by, 05:13 from the view point that, of you're responsibilities. 05:19 We had a meeting a few years ago 05:20 and I'm not gonna name any names here, 05:22 but a leader of a, I'm trying to watch my words 05:29 it won't be identified, a youngest fellow, 05:31 ex-military was heading up following his father on a, 05:35 on a fairly influential religious liberty 05:39 advocacy organization and he'd just come back 05:41 from one of the ex-Soviet Republics 05:45 and I remember he got up in front of that group 05:47 and he said how it had been 05:48 a very successful mission there, 05:51 where as before they went, 05:52 most of the main line denominations been illegal 05:57 and he said we'd be very successful 05:58 if we managed to get a legal status. 06:01 He named about three religions, 06:04 one of them was main line Christianity, his... 06:08 His denomination. 06:09 And I got up and told him off, 06:11 I said, "This is how the communist worked." 06:14 They would divide and conquer, I said, "You've gained nothing 06:18 and now, you're sort of their ally 06:20 in keeping the other marginalized." 06:23 It seems to me even though in the real world 06:25 it's not always that neat and clean 06:27 but, you've really got be arguing against a regime 06:30 that's harassing a whole broad front of a religious entities. 06:34 You got to argue that they all get it, 06:35 for them to concede on one or two 06:38 and you'd be happy about it. 06:41 It seems to me you've played into their hands. 06:42 You know, I think, you could be taken 06:43 into either way though... 06:45 But the you know that was communist system, 06:47 divide and conquer. 06:48 Yes, set one group against the other. 06:50 But if you, if they say, well, we'll register a few 06:54 and we'll register you're group and a couple of others. 06:57 But we're not gonna register those others, 07:00 would you then say, well, on principles, 07:03 since you won't register everyone, 07:06 my group also declines to be registered? 07:08 May be... May be, I'll miss a... 07:10 That would be a tough... 07:11 Maybe I'm not remembering John McCain's case. 07:13 But it seemed to me, didn't John McCain 07:16 refused to be released earlier 07:17 because they weren't releasing some of his friends? 07:20 That's true, but that was, 07:21 well, not just some of his friends, 07:23 The other POWs... 07:24 That's what I mean, his friends in the prison. 07:27 I think all other POWs but... 07:29 He did, but that was the matter of principle of, 07:32 for his own personal benefit he declined to benefit 07:37 while his other POWs couldn't. 07:40 I don't know, would you? 07:44 Some would argue that if three groups 07:47 can be registered and one of them is their group, 07:50 that that's God's leading, 07:51 it's a start or some would say it's an "opening wedge", 07:54 that's a phrase and that by getting three 07:57 and it will then be easier to get number four and five... 08:00 As far as the interest of your particular group. 08:02 It's wonderful. Yes. 08:04 Advancing the principles 08:05 of the religious liberty for all people. 08:07 I think it's dubious. 08:08 It is, it is dubious, but I am saying it could be, 08:11 that you, baby steps, you know, you start out 08:14 and you, you get three 08:15 and you go for four or five, yeah. 08:18 Anyhow it's a discussion point, 08:19 but it's something at the time bothered me, 08:22 because if, I really saw 08:24 it is a tactical move by that country, 08:29 when they hadn't really changed their general attitude toward, 08:32 what it was, it really wasn't 08:34 a doctrinal dispute or a truth issue. 08:36 They were suspicious of all outside religious groups 08:40 and that the suspicion hadn't changed. 08:42 They just given in on a couple of less threatening ones... 08:45 And they feel this will take the heat off. 08:48 And, you know, he's changed a lot since 08:51 so, he's not a bad guy. 08:52 With the time I thought he was being very naive. 08:55 Okay. 08:56 Which is, you know, characterizes, 08:58 seems to characterize some of these 09:02 inter-country negotiations. 09:03 Yeah. 09:05 And, you know, even going back to non-U.S. thing, 09:08 Chamberlain Neville, Neville Chamberlain, 09:09 that's the knock against the... 09:11 Which was wishful thinking-- large. 09:13 That was certainly wishful thinking 09:14 and may be this one was too, the example you're giving. 09:17 But now we got a great challenge ahead of us 09:21 for religious liberty and any country like the U.S, 09:24 that's endorsing those same values. 09:27 I think, it must have been more than a privilege 09:30 on a regular occasion for you to, 09:33 to be working with the system 09:34 and where there's a coincidence. 09:36 Of your faith values 09:38 and your commitment as a citizen. 09:40 It was, yes, I was really given an opportunity to, 09:45 to speak to people at all levels of government 09:47 including to the president, there, 09:48 to the foreign minister, he and I 09:50 were on first name basis and they listened. 09:56 It didn't mean that they always agreed. 09:58 There were a couple of times 09:59 when I spoke to him about issues 10:02 where in the United Nations the vote was coming up 10:04 and we would hope that Suriname 10:07 as a fellow democracy, a fellow multi ethnic, 10:10 multi religious democracy would vote with us 10:14 and then they didn't choose to. 10:16 And so I would be a bit disappointed, 10:18 but on at least a couple of occasions, 10:21 they did modified their vote after talking to me 10:23 because they saw the, that our values were going 10:28 in the same direction as our interests on that. 10:30 Yeah. So. 10:32 That's very good, yeah, you've had a privilege 10:35 to be on that in a circle. 10:37 Passing comment, you might not expect me 10:39 to ask the question. 10:40 Did you ever have a sort of a ah-huh moment 10:44 dealing with any of these top officials 10:46 where you saw their moral principles, 10:48 their spiritual commitment sort of evidence in, 10:53 you know, I know that usually... 10:54 The way or good way. 10:55 Well, that was your, its, but did you feel that 10:59 many of these, maybe I'll rephrase it, 11:01 many of these people were, had moral, moorings 11:07 so that they were acting on in their official position too? 11:11 Yes, yes, I did feel like that was an option, 11:15 not just an option, sorry, 11:16 but they were following through on their principles 11:21 and it was a privilege for me to work with them 11:23 and we're kind of speak about where our principles 11:28 and values went in the same direction. 11:31 I was honored to, to see them, 11:33 also live out their principles usually. 11:39 When we think of Seventh-Day Adventist 11:41 in public service in the United States 11:45 or indeed in any other country, we often think of, 11:48 you know, what influence have 11:50 they for the church as an organization, 11:52 but in reality, the most important thing 11:55 is what influence are they 11:57 through their daily lived personal lives 12:00 for the principles of the God's kingdom, 12:03 I do believe that, that is revealed 12:06 in powerful ways all around the world, 12:09 not just on this program 12:11 as exemplified by Ambassador Nay. 12:13 It is important to realize that the inside story 12:16 is not a political insider, but what inside motivation 12:21 and outwardly lived character traits 12:24 come from that profession. 12:27 For 'Liberty Insider' this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-09-10