Welcome back to
'The Liberty Insider'
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before the break with
the Ambassador John Nay.
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We were really talking about
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how you project
both national identities
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and values and as a Christian.
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Is there a certain parallel?
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Oh, I think there's
a lot of a parallels.
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There must be
and I've also tried
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to make a connection to
some of the greats in The Bible.
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Which, you know,
they're wonderful stories
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we look back on.
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But, those things
have been repeated
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before our eyes today.
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Yes.
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It's really
Christian Stewardship
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and loyalty to
particular national viewpoint.
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But what if, let's get
it to a big hypothetical,
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it's hypothetical
because the U.S. is been
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it's a liberal democracy.
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It's staying quite
true to the constitution,
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but what if you
were an ambassador
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or a public official for a state
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that then asked you to do,
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or to defend something
that was not even close
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to your moral
Christian Principles?
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You know, it all
depends what the issue is
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and how I'm
expected to defend it
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and I think it would always have
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to be on a case by case basis.
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Now certainly, when the,
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when the United
States went into Iraq
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over the recommendations
of some, but, you know...
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Ambassadors have
resigned, haven't they?
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Well, exactly and
there were some ambassadors
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who resigned and at one point
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during that
time, I was one a list
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to be considered
to be an ambassador
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and I had to give
some very careful thought
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as to whether or not
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I would be comfortable going out
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and representing
the United States...
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In that particular situation.
As ambassador during that time.
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As it happened, I
then wasn't offered
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the ambassadorship.
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So, I didn't, I wasn't
forced to make that choice.
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I wasn't offered
the ambassadorship
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that I thought
was coming through
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and in fact things
worked out far better for me
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and I got sent
to Toronto, but...
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Well, may be God was guiding you
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that you career little--
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Well, perhaps, but my
view, if I had accepted.
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If I'd been
offered the ambassadorship
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and had accepted it,
I would've been doing
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so on the basis of
trying to repair the damage
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as much as
possible to the U.S. image
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that invasion had caused.
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But, as I said,
happily I didn't even have
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to face that choice.
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Then again, if we
were being asked to defend
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something that
was, is just out and out
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wrong in whatever way,
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then you have to
choose to resign.
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Of course, I mean
the most extreme case
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that usually people reach for
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and then others gets
mad for even mentioning.
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You know the Nazi regime. Yes.
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And at Nuremberg they
hold officials responsible
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because they're all said well,
it was orders I was just told
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we know at least from Nuremberg,
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even though we
seem to have forgotten
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that in the world at
large and the U.S. since.
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I think it's a good principle
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to be good stewards
and be loyal subjects,
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such a appropriate word
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but, there's got to be
line where you don't do,
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what a State says on occasion
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and there might
be a consequence,
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losing the job,
resigning or whatever.
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Yes, and that would
be an easier consequence
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of course than what
some of those Nazi officials
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would've faced because...
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Well, they left it too late.
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Yeah, they might have faced,
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if they had
chosen to say 'I'm sorry'
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but that's not an
order I can follow,
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of course that
could've been a death sentence.
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But usually people get
into this step by step...
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It's not like
some grand movement
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they're on edge of
doing all these things,
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they've got a little bit--
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And so I think
what's more important
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which we've discussed
and you understand this,
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you have to have a
strong moral campus
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on whatever you do.
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Yes.
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And it's made easier
by having a public role
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in a country
that has higher goals.
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But there are
Christians, even Adventists,
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the work with some countries
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that are not quite so
altruistic in their...
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Surely. In their aims.
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Absolutely true.
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And I think this is more than
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a hypothetical for some of them.
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And when I was posted in India
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going to the same
church that we did.
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There was also an Adventist
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who was the ambassador of
an another country to India
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and I was consulate
general at the time,
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we got to know him
and his family quite,
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well, I still
count them as friends.
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But, and actually the country
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that he was from was, let's say,
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at least a partial democracy
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and he was a very
good representative,
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did very well
and the right things
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and his country was not a
Nazi sort of country happily.
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But I know that
he would've faced
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some difficult choices.
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Yeah, could be
very complicating.
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Let me run something else by,
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from the view point that,
of you're responsibilities.
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We had a meeting a few years ago
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and I'm not gonna
name any names here,
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but a leader of a, I'm
trying to watch my words
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it won't be
identified, a youngest fellow,
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ex-military was heading
up following his father on a,
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on a fairly
influential religious liberty
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advocacy organization
and he'd just come back
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from one of the
ex-Soviet Republics
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and I remember he got
up in front of that group
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and he said how it had been
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a very successful mission there,
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where as before they went,
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most of the main line
denominations been illegal
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and he said we'd
be very successful
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if we managed to
get a legal status.
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He named about three religions,
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one of them was main
line Christianity, his...
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His denomination.
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And I got up and told him off,
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I said, "This is how
the communist worked."
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They would divide and conquer,
I said, "You've gained nothing
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and now, you're
sort of their ally
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in keeping the
other marginalized."
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It seems to me even
though in the real world
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it's not always
that neat and clean
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but, you've really got
be arguing against a regime
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that's harassing a whole broad
front of a religious entities.
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You got to argue
that they all get it,
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for them to
concede on one or two
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and you'd be happy about it.
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It seems to me you've
played into their hands.
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You know, I
think, you could be taken
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into either way though...
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But the you know
that was communist system,
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divide and conquer.
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Yes, set one
group against the other.
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But if you, if they say,
well, we'll register a few
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and we'll register you're
group and a couple of others.
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But we're not gonna
register those others,
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would you then say,
well, on principles,
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since you won't
register everyone,
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my group also
declines to be registered?
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May be... May be, I'll miss a...
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That would be a tough...
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Maybe I'm not
remembering John McCain's case.
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But it seemed to
me, didn't John McCain
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refused to be released earlier
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because they weren't
releasing some of his friends?
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That's true, but that was,
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well, not just
some of his friends,
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The other POWs...
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That's what I mean,
his friends in the prison.
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I think all other POWs but...
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He did, but that was
the matter of principle of,
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for his own personal
benefit he declined to benefit
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while his other POWs couldn't.
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I don't know, would you?
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Some would argue
that if three groups
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can be registered and
one of them is their group,
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that that's God's leading,
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it's a start or some would
say it's an "opening wedge",
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that's a phrase and
that by getting three
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and it will then be easier
to get number four and five...
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As far as the interest
of your particular group.
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It's wonderful. Yes.
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Advancing the principles
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of the religious
liberty for all people.
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I think it's dubious.
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It is, it is dubious,
but I am saying it could be,
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that you, baby steps,
you know, you start out
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and you, you get three
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and you go for
four or five, yeah.
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Anyhow it's a discussion point,
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but it's something
at the time bothered me,
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because if, I really saw
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it is a tactical
move by that country,
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when they hadn't really changed
their general attitude toward,
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what it was, it really wasn't
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a doctrinal
dispute or a truth issue.
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They were suspicious of
all outside religious groups
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and that the
suspicion hadn't changed.
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They just given in on a couple
of less threatening ones...
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And they feel this
will take the heat off.
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And, you know,
he's changed a lot since
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so, he's not a bad guy.
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With the time I thought
he was being very naive.
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Okay.
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Which is, you
know, characterizes,
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seems to
characterize some of these
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inter-country negotiations.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, even
going back to non-U.S. thing,
00:09:05.07\00:09:08.24
Chamberlain
Neville, Neville Chamberlain,
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that's the knock against the...
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Which was
wishful thinking-- large.
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That was
certainly wishful thinking
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and may be this one was
too, the example you're giving.
00:09:14.58\00:09:17.09
But now we got a
great challenge ahead of us
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for religious liberty
and any country like the U.S,
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that's endorsing
those same values.
00:09:24.46\00:09:27.20
I think, it must have
been more than a privilege
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on a regular
occasion for you to,
00:09:30.40\00:09:33.00
to be working with the system
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and where there's a coincidence.
00:09:34.40\00:09:36.87
Of your faith values
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and your
commitment as a citizen.
00:09:38.27\00:09:40.58
It was, yes, I was
really given an opportunity to,
00:09:40.61\00:09:45.11
to speak to people at
all levels of government
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including to the
president, there,
00:09:47.02\00:09:48.95
to the foreign
minister, he and I
00:09:48.98\00:09:50.42
were on first name
basis and they listened.
00:09:50.45\00:09:56.09
It didn't mean
that they always agreed.
00:09:56.12\00:09:58.06
There were a couple of times
00:09:58.09\00:09:59.43
when I spoke to him about issues
00:09:59.46\00:10:02.00
where in the United
Nations the vote was coming up
00:10:02.03\00:10:04.73
and we would hope that Suriname
00:10:04.77\00:10:07.10
as a fellow democracy,
a fellow multi ethnic,
00:10:07.14\00:10:10.14
multi religious
democracy would vote with us
00:10:10.17\00:10:14.48
and then they didn't choose to.
00:10:14.51\00:10:16.75
And so I would be
a bit disappointed,
00:10:16.78\00:10:18.85
but on at least a
couple of occasions,
00:10:18.88\00:10:21.15
they did modified their
vote after talking to me
00:10:21.18\00:10:23.95
because they saw the,
that our values were going
00:10:23.99\00:10:28.59
in the same direction
as our interests on that.
00:10:28.62\00:10:30.93
Yeah. So.
00:10:30.96\00:10:32.29
That's very good,
yeah, you've had a privilege
00:10:32.33\00:10:35.06
to be on that in a circle.
00:10:35.10\00:10:37.57
Passing comment,
you might not expect me
00:10:37.60\00:10:39.20
to ask the question.
00:10:39.23\00:10:40.57
Did you ever have a
sort of a ah-huh moment
00:10:40.60\00:10:44.37
dealing with any
of these top officials
00:10:44.41\00:10:46.04
where you saw
their moral principles,
00:10:46.07\00:10:48.51
their spiritual
commitment sort of evidence in,
00:10:48.54\00:10:53.01
you know, I know that usually...
00:10:53.05\00:10:54.38
The way or good way.
00:10:54.42\00:10:55.75
Well, that was your,
its, but did you feel that
00:10:55.78\00:10:59.75
many of these,
maybe I'll rephrase it,
00:10:59.79\00:11:01.16
many of these people
were, had moral, moorings
00:11:01.19\00:11:06.96
so that they were acting on
in their official position too?
00:11:07.00\00:11:11.00
Yes, yes, I did feel
like that was an option,
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not just an option, sorry,
00:11:15.34\00:11:16.67
but they were following
through on their principles
00:11:16.71\00:11:21.41
and it was a privilege
for me to work with them
00:11:21.44\00:11:23.91
and we're kind of speak
about where our principles
00:11:23.95\00:11:28.68
and values went in
the same direction.
00:11:28.72\00:11:31.19
I was honored to, to see them,
00:11:31.22\00:11:33.89
also live out
their principles usually.
00:11:33.92\00:11:39.86
When we think of
Seventh-Day Adventist
00:11:39.89\00:11:41.93
in public service
in the United States
00:11:41.96\00:11:45.17
or indeed in any other
country, we often think of,
00:11:45.20\00:11:48.54
you know, what influence have
00:11:48.57\00:11:49.97
they for the
church as an organization,
00:11:50.01\00:11:52.27
but in reality, the
most important thing
00:11:52.31\00:11:55.34
is what influence are they
00:11:55.38\00:11:57.71
through their daily
lived personal lives
00:11:57.75\00:12:00.78
for the principles
of the God's kingdom,
00:12:00.82\00:12:03.85
I do believe
that, that is revealed
00:12:03.89\00:12:06.19
in powerful ways
all around the world,
00:12:06.22\00:12:08.99
not just on this program
00:12:09.02\00:12:11.13
as exemplified
by Ambassador Nay.
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It is important to
realize that the inside story
00:12:13.93\00:12:16.67
is not a political insider,
but what inside motivation
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and outwardly
lived character traits
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come from that profession.
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For 'Liberty Insider'
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:27.74\00:12:31.25