Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Nay
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000302A
|
00:23 Welcome to 'The Liberty Insider,'
00:25 this is a program bringing you a discussion, news, 00:27 updates and analysis of religious liberty events 00:30 and developments around the world 00:32 of course in the United States, where we're based. 00:35 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor Of Liberty magazine 00:39 and my guest is Ambassador, John Nay, 00:42 before his retirement, 00:43 you're last ambassador to Suriname, 00:45 but you had a lifetime of global experiences 00:50 working with the United States. 00:53 You're an Seventh Adventist. Yes. 00:54 We're talking about religious liberty. 00:56 Do you have any experiences of it or yourself 00:58 or your family where the religious liberty, 01:01 work or the department really made a difference? 01:04 Well, one issue that I remember a story, 01:09 I remember from when I was very small 01:10 was my grandmother explaining that her father 01:13 ah, no, I take it back, 01:15 her grandfather had been fired from his job 01:19 as a street conductor in Battle Creek 01:21 for not being willing to work on Sabbath." 01:24 In Battle Creek, which is sort of that... 01:26 Yes, but, but it was my grandmother's... 01:28 Ground-zero. 01:29 My grandmother's grandfather, 01:30 so it was back quite a long time ago 01:33 and I remember her telling me that when I was small. 01:36 And so there was no... 01:38 religious liberty department at that time, 01:40 I think he just lost his job 01:41 and had to go do something else. 01:43 Well, he might've been but they did to get evolved. 01:45 Now, uh, you know, as church's religious 01:47 liberty departments just started in the 1880s... 01:50 with 80 gents, there was a little bit of a... 01:53 down point from to around the trend of the century. 01:58 And then in 1906 02:00 Liberty Magazine recommends publication and all 02:03 I know it's a, the department's been active ever since, 02:07 but of course there's different crisis points 02:09 and during the wars 02:11 there's been a religious liberty issue with the military 02:13 and periodically, currently we don't have an official one. 02:17 Hmm. Okay But, we should. 02:19 I don't know if you have any knowledge of that. 02:22 No. You and I have some... 02:25 genetic memories I think of the Vietnam are you... 02:29 Yes. 02:30 And there were accommodations 02:32 not just for Seventh Day Adventists, 02:34 but for people with religious differences and Adventist... 02:39 could go into the, to the economy-- 02:42 I'm trying to think what they called it-- 02:44 Brother wears the white coats Medics. 02:46 Well, I was a medic. 02:47 And that I was fishing for the medics. 02:49 Where they would not bare arms, didn't have to bare arms 02:52 or there was the alternative going in it as the white coats, 02:55 which was the experimental, we don't want to know to much 02:58 about what they were doing but I had a friend 03:00 and that would go in once a day and be injected 03:02 with something or the other 03:04 and then been tested afterwards. 03:06 So it's not a direct issue then, 03:08 there were accommodations, 03:10 but now, with the volunteer army 03:13 there's not the same rights, they've given away... 03:16 more completely, and curiously we don't have calls from people 03:20 even though there's no way you can go into the military 03:23 and say I'm not bearing arms 03:25 and there's no way you can go in and say 03:27 "I must have Sabbath accommodations." 03:30 Might get it in particular instance 03:32 but it's all most certain that most Adventist 03:36 and other people of faith are in a compromise situation, 03:39 so it's quite sad, but it's not a, 03:41 it's not a dynamic issue with us today. 03:44 It would be ah, it would be difficult. 03:46 Yeah. 03:47 But what you say of that you're... 03:49 They were so... You're is? 03:51 My great, great grandfather 03:52 and actually would have been in the 1870s 03:56 that he had this happen. 03:58 Wow, that's good he him till the-- 04:00 My great grandfather his son had been born in 1877 04:03 so it was a-- 04:05 So, what generation Seventh Day Adventist are you? 04:06 Well, where would that be uh, you know, one, two, 04:09 three, four, five at least fifth, yeah. 04:11 Yeah, I think it's fifth? 04:14 I think I'm first Yeah. 04:16 Can't get it back much further than that. 04:18 you're another, well, religious economy. 04:21 Certainly, I have uh, had interaction in contact 04:24 with various officials of the church 04:27 during the course of my career 04:29 and I remember the general conference president 04:31 coming to visit India when I was there 04:34 that was a you know, Elder Paulsen, 04:37 and so, you know meeting him 04:40 as he had a chance to visit New Delhi-- 04:44 And you were in New Delhi? I was. 04:45 I was at the embassy in New Delhi. 04:47 Yeah. 04:49 You know, so I can't say that I had direct interaction 04:55 with religious liberty officials 04:58 in terms of being involved in trying to-- 05:01 you know, people maintain their religious freedom. 05:04 But, did, did you... I mean obviously on a personal level 05:09 I'm sure you had many contacts with Adventist-- 05:12 Oh! fellow Adventist? All the time. 05:14 But was the church particularly aware 05:17 that you are holding these different positions? 05:19 Oh! Absolutely. In fact-- 05:21 'Cause I'm asking that for a reason, but continue. 05:23 You know, everybody knew where we worked 05:26 you know, if you were a foreigner 05:28 and you showed up at church, 05:31 you were either some more missionaries 05:33 there were a few business people, 05:34 and then they were, you know, myself with the government 05:38 and there are at least three other Adventists that I know 05:42 in the foreign service at present, maybe four. 05:46 Depending on whether one person I know is retired yet or not. 05:49 But... certainly, and we were always very, 05:53 very warmly welcomed, 05:56 when were in Suriname, we really loved the church, 05:59 we were members out there and they were very welcoming 06:03 included us... 06:04 and although there was one English speaking church 06:06 because it's a Dutch speaking country, 06:08 we chose to go to Dutch speaking church. 06:13 And you know, during the course of time 06:16 our Dutch got better and we could understand 06:20 the sermons and so on, 06:21 but very much appreciated the people. 06:23 'Cause you'd be then in South Africa, 06:26 are you must have picked a little out their 06:27 Africans is not that different, is it? 06:29 Very similar, Africans-- Yeah, it was originally... 06:32 But... was that settlers. Yeah. 06:35 Now, the reason I'm asking the question on... 06:40 that, you know, if it was known. 06:43 We know in principle 06:45 that there are many Seventh Day Adventists 06:47 in the United States in particular 06:48 in government service and positions, 06:51 various positions. 06:52 We, came across them quite regularly, 06:54 but there is no master list 06:56 or any particularly coordinated way 07:00 of connecting with them. 07:02 And then, it'd be nicer if they were 07:03 and just from a familial point of view, 07:06 not that they are church, 07:09 thankfully has never really tried to use people 07:11 to further the aims of the church that could easily 07:14 get into an inappropriate relationship. 07:17 But just as members of a common Christian family 07:20 it's very good to know who they are 07:21 as soon as we have had meeting of some of the staff 07:25 in Washington in sort of an insiders club, 07:28 But, it's not-- it's amazed me how poorly coordinated it is. 07:34 And again we have, Barry Black, Chaplain Barry Black-- 07:36 Yes. 07:37 And chaplain of the U.S. senate, 07:39 he's very high profiled person, 07:40 but there's many, many, many others. 07:43 But, nearly by using the term poorly coordinated 07:45 you imply-- that implies that you think-- 07:47 That was probably the wrong word, 07:49 what I mean is poorly identified, 07:51 we don't really know, 07:53 we're always stumbling on someone in the position 07:55 and oh, it's Seventh Day Adventist 07:56 I mean I suppose you could... 07:57 you could ask people to sort of voluntarily sign up. 08:02 But, but it would raise those questions about well, 08:05 you know, how are you going to use my name? And-- 08:08 And that's probably why it hasn't happened, 08:10 we, we're reticent to-- Sure. 08:12 You know, to use it inappropriately, 08:15 but I think it would be nice if they had known 08:17 rather than just sort of appear at magical moments. 08:21 And I knew a couple of Adventist's chaplains 08:23 who served in the military-- 08:26 Now, they're more well known because they have a-- 08:28 They have a church in pre-mature-- 08:30 System, we have someone in charge of the Chaplaincy 08:33 the power of them. 08:35 And some military, one guy I knew 08:39 who was an Adventist, who worked for NASA. 08:43 So I mean you do come across somebody in homeland security, 08:47 and you come across some. 08:48 And as Barry Black says very publicly, 08:51 he sees himself as a Daniel in a court there. 08:54 And I think in there are-- why of these people are there, 08:58 it's a privilege for them to represent not just a country 09:02 but their faith comes with them, 09:03 you know, this-- it's a misunderstanding 09:06 in the separation in the church and state argument 09:08 in the United States that a person of faith 09:10 leaves their faith behind. 09:12 Oh! Right. 09:13 That absolutely should, 09:15 should help describe their character, 09:17 I mean, it's a centralism. 09:19 There's a huge difference between that 09:20 and trying to use their position of authority 09:23 to, you know, to funnel their faith 09:26 were used to other people or into lowers and so on. 09:29 But it can't be separated from the person. 09:32 No, no more than you would expect 09:34 someone who is of one ethnic background 09:37 to somehow pretend that they're not. 09:39 Yeah? Which has happened lately. 09:42 Well. I don't know. 09:43 That news out there was a woman 09:45 that was leading out of the end of the NAACP. 09:48 Who wished she were Evi Manardi but same as that she wasn't 09:54 but she did a good job, there in her defense. 09:56 But you're right, I mean, you're what you are 09:59 and you can't... 10:02 you shouldn't move away from that. 10:03 You just need to make sure that you're priority however 10:06 is... if you're working for the government 10:09 and representing the United States, 10:13 then you have to make that a priority. 10:16 But at the same time,yeah, it was very visible who I was 10:21 and of course in Suriname it's a fairly small country 10:24 in terms of the population and I... 10:30 sometimes my security officer would be concerned about me 10:33 because on the weekends I drove myself 10:38 I was entitled to a driver at all times 10:40 but I was reluctant to drag this poor guy in 10:44 and then to have him, drive us to church and then sit outside 10:48 because he would have sat outside 10:51 even if we'd invited him in 10:52 and he would had to have been working 10:54 and he just didn't seem, I prefer the independence 10:58 to being able to drive myself and in some countries 11:01 that would not have been possible 11:02 in Suriname it was, although like I said 11:05 my security officer was a little concerned at times. 11:08 You're getting close to a what to this day 11:12 many Americans don't understand about Australia. 11:15 I don't know if you remember, years ago 11:16 an Australian PrimeMinister was lost swimming. 11:19 Drowning. Yeah. 11:21 And people can't figure how come he was alone 11:23 well, he didn't have any guard at that time 11:26 he just that was seen no need. 11:28 Well, I remembered that one time 11:29 I went to the supermarket on the Sunday evening, 11:32 wearing a t-shirt, shorts and I had a baseball cap on 11:35 and I was buying ice-cream... 11:38 And I, you know, paid for it in the counter 11:41 and the bag boy, put it in the bag, 11:44 handed it to me and said 11:46 "Have a good evening Mr. Ambassador." 11:48 And I thought I was blown 11:50 you know, it goes to show how visible one was and-- 11:55 But that actually was good for job. 11:57 That meant you were really doing, in my view 11:59 that was an affirmation not that a potential threat. 12:02 Oh, it wasn't granting, but it was definitely 12:06 a case of being visible and recognizing 12:10 that you are actually being pretty public 12:11 which was a good thing but it also makes you 12:14 very conscious of the importance 12:16 of being a good representative. 12:18 Right, I was about to lead it in that. 12:20 If you are-- 12:21 And as we can even relate to being a Christian. 12:23 Absolutely. 12:25 Eventually, it's known one way or the other 12:26 especially those of which working in religious liberty. 12:29 I sometimes think we don't announce 12:31 our connection often enough but the word gets around 12:34 and then they're looking at you. 12:36 I can remember years ago 12:38 there was an unfortunate incident 12:40 where an Adventist college was hoping to get some 12:43 government grant money and to get it 12:45 they challenged the churches, 12:47 the states' view on separation of the churches 12:49 that would turn the world on its head. 12:51 I got many, many calls from other religious liberty 12:54 and other church groups 12:55 you know, "What is that with you Adventist? 12:57 This is, your position, your head,' you know, 'explain it.'" 12:59 So they've been watching. 13:00 They knew our position and actually we're ready 13:03 to pull us back on to our course. 13:06 So we're stand for something, or once you stand for something 13:10 you need to be consistent with it 13:12 'cause people are watching. 13:14 And you clearly were, 13:16 I think representing your country in the best way 13:18 they about being with the people and then formal, 13:21 I don't think it's a good to witnessed 13:22 to be cruising around in the limousine. 13:26 Which might be necessary for security in some places. 13:29 Certainly in some places. 13:30 Well, I can see we're at the break point 13:32 so, stay with us we'll be back 13:33 for this very interesting discussion 13:35 with the Ambassador. |
Revised 2015-09-10