Welcome to 'The
Liberty Insider,'
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this is a program
bringing you a discussion, news,
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updates and analysis of
religious liberty events
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and
developments around the world
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of course in the United
States, where we're based.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor Of Liberty magazine
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and my guest is
Ambassador, John Nay,
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before his retirement,
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you're last
ambassador to Suriname,
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but you had a
lifetime of global experiences
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working with the United States.
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You're an
Seventh Adventist. Yes.
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We're talking
about religious liberty.
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Do you have any
experiences of it or yourself
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or your family where
the religious liberty,
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work or the department
really made a difference?
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Well, one issue
that I remember a story,
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I remember from
when I was very small
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was my grandmother
explaining that her father
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ah, no, I take it back,
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her grandfather had
been fired from his job
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as a street
conductor in Battle Creek
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for not being
willing to work on Sabbath."
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In Battle Creek,
which is sort of that...
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Yes, but, but it
was my grandmother's...
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Ground-zero.
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My grandmother's grandfather,
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so it was back
quite a long time ago
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and I remember her telling
me that when I was small.
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And so there was no...
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religious liberty
department at that time,
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I think he just lost his job
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and had to go do something else.
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Well, he might've been
but they did to get evolved.
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Now, uh, you know,
as church's religious
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liberty departments
just started in the 1880s...
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with 80 gents, there
was a little bit of a...
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down point from to
around the trend of the century.
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And then in 1906
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Liberty Magazine
recommends publication and all
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I know it's a, the department's
been active ever since,
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but of course there's
different crisis points
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and during the wars
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there's been a religious
liberty issue with the military
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and periodically, currently
we don't have an official one.
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Hmm. Okay But, we should.
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I don't know if you
have any knowledge of that.
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No. You and I have some...
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genetic memories I think
of the Vietnam are you...
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Yes.
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And there were accommodations
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not just for
Seventh Day Adventists,
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but for people with religious
differences and Adventist...
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could go into
the, to the economy--
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I'm trying to think
what they called it--
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Brother wears the
white coats Medics.
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Well, I was a medic.
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And that I was
fishing for the medics.
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Where they would not bare
arms, didn't have to bare arms
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or there was the alternative
going in it as the white coats,
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which was the experimental,
we don't want to know to much
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about what they were
doing but I had a friend
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and that would go in
once a day and be injected
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with something or the other
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and then been tested afterwards.
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So it's not a direct issue then,
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there were accommodations,
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but now, with the volunteer army
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there's not the same
rights, they've given away...
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more completely, and curiously
we don't have calls from people
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even though there's no way
you can go into the military
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and say I'm not bearing arms
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and there's no way
you can go in and say
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"I must have
Sabbath accommodations."
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Might get it in
particular instance
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but it's all most
certain that most Adventist
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and other people of faith
are in a compromise situation,
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so it's quite
sad, but it's not a,
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it's not a dynamic
issue with us today.
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It would be ah, it
would be difficult.
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Yeah.
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But what you say
of that you're...
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They were so... You're is?
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My great, great grandfather
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and actually would
have been in the 1870s
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that he had this happen.
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Wow, that's good
he him till the--
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My great grandfather his
son had been born in 1877
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so it was a--
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So, what generation
Seventh Day Adventist are you?
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Well, where would that
be uh, you know, one, two,
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three, four, five
at least fifth, yeah.
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Yeah, I think it's fifth?
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I think I'm first Yeah.
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Can't get it back
much further than that.
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you're another,
well, religious economy.
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Certainly, I have uh,
had interaction in contact
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with various
officials of the church
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during the course of my career
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and I remember the
general conference president
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coming to visit
India when I was there
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that was a you
know, Elder Paulsen,
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and so, you know meeting him
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as he had a chance
to visit New Delhi--
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And you were in
New Delhi? I was.
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I was at the
embassy in New Delhi.
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Yeah.
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You know, so I can't say
that I had direct interaction
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with religious liberty officials
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in terms of being
involved in trying to--
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you know, people maintain
their religious freedom.
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But, did, did you... I mean
obviously on a personal level
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I'm sure you had many
contacts with Adventist--
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Oh! fellow
Adventist? All the time.
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But was the
church particularly aware
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that you are holding
these different positions?
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Oh! Absolutely. In fact--
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'Cause I'm asking that
for a reason, but continue.
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You know, everybody
knew where we worked
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you know, if
you were a foreigner
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and you showed up at church,
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you were either
some more missionaries
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there were a
few business people,
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and then they were, you
know, myself with the government
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and there are at least three
other Adventists that I know
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in the foreign service
at present, maybe four.
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Depending on whether one person
I know is retired yet or not.
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But... certainly,
and we were always very,
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very warmly welcomed,
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when were in Suriname,
we really loved the church,
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we were members out there
and they were very welcoming
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included us...
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and although there was
one English speaking church
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because it's a
Dutch speaking country,
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we chose to go to
Dutch speaking church.
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And you know,
during the course of time
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our Dutch got better
and we could understand
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the sermons and so on,
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but very much
appreciated the people.
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'Cause you'd be
then in South Africa,
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are you must have
picked a little out their
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Africans is not
that different, is it?
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Very similar, Africans--
Yeah, it was originally...
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But... was that settlers. Yeah.
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Now, the reason I'm
asking the question on...
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that, you know, if it was known.
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We know in principle
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that there are many
Seventh Day Adventists
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in the United
States in particular
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in government
service and positions,
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various positions.
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We, came across
them quite regularly,
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but there is no master list
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or any
particularly coordinated way
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of connecting with them.
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And then, it'd be
nicer if they were
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and just from a
familial point of view,
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not that they are church,
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thankfully has never
really tried to use people
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to further the aims of
the church that could easily
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get into an
inappropriate relationship.
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But just as members of
a common Christian family
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it's very good
to know who they are
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as soon as we have had
meeting of some of the staff
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in Washington in
sort of an insiders club,
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But, it's not-- it's amazed
me how poorly coordinated it is.
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And again we have, Barry
Black, Chaplain Barry Black--
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Yes.
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And chaplain of the U.S. senate,
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he's very high profiled person,
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but there's many,
many, many others.
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But, nearly by using
the term poorly coordinated
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you imply-- that
implies that you think--
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That was
probably the wrong word,
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what I mean is
poorly identified,
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we don't really know,
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we're always stumbling
on someone in the position
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and oh, it's
Seventh Day Adventist
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I mean I suppose you could...
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you could ask people to
sort of voluntarily sign up.
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But, but it would raise
those questions about well,
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you know, how are you
going to use my name? And--
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And that's probably
why it hasn't happened,
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we, we're reticent to-- Sure.
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You know, to use
it inappropriately,
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but I think it would
be nice if they had known
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rather than just sort of
appear at magical moments.
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And I knew a couple
of Adventist's chaplains
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who served in the military--
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Now, they're more well
known because they have a--
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They have a
church in pre-mature--
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System, we have someone
in charge of the Chaplaincy
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the power of them.
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And some
military, one guy I knew
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who was an
Adventist, who worked for NASA.
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So I mean you do come across
somebody in homeland security,
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and you come across some.
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And as Barry Black
says very publicly,
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he sees himself as a
Daniel in a court there.
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And I think in there are--
why of these people are there,
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it's a privilege for them
to represent not just a country
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but their faith comes with them,
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you know, this--
it's a misunderstanding
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in the separation in the
church and state argument
00:09:06.81\00:09:08.91
in the United States
that a person of faith
00:09:08.94\00:09:10.95
leaves their faith behind.
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Oh! Right.
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That absolutely should,
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should help
describe their character,
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I mean, it's a centralism.
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There's a huge
difference between that
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and trying to use
their position of authority
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to, you know, to
funnel their faith
00:09:23.86\00:09:26.33
were used to other
people or into lowers and so on.
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But it can't be
separated from the person.
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No, no more
than you would expect
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someone who is of
one ethnic background
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to somehow
pretend that they're not.
00:09:37.44\00:09:39.47
Yeah? Which has happened lately.
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Well. I don't know.
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That news out there was a woman
00:09:43.81\00:09:45.75
that was leading out
of the end of the NAACP.
00:09:45.78\00:09:48.75
Who wished she were Evi Manardi
but same as that she wasn't
00:09:48.78\00:09:53.99
but she did a good
job, there in her defense.
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But you're right, I
mean, you're what you are
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and you can't...
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you shouldn't
move away from that.
00:10:02.06\00:10:03.47
You just need to make sure
that you're priority however
00:10:03.50\00:10:06.37
is... if you're
working for the government
00:10:06.40\00:10:09.90
and representing
the United States,
00:10:09.94\00:10:13.21
then you have to
make that a priority.
00:10:13.24\00:10:16.11
But at the same time,yeah,
it was very visible who I was
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and of course in Suriname
it's a fairly small country
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in terms of the
population and I...
00:10:24.62\00:10:30.56
sometimes my security officer
would be concerned about me
00:10:30.59\00:10:33.73
because on the
weekends I drove myself
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I was entitled to
a driver at all times
00:10:38.37\00:10:40.64
but I was reluctant
to drag this poor guy in
00:10:40.67\00:10:44.34
and then to have him, drive us
to church and then sit outside
00:10:44.37\00:10:48.34
because he
would have sat outside
00:10:48.38\00:10:50.98
even if we'd invited him in
00:10:51.01\00:10:52.35
and he would had
to have been working
00:10:52.38\00:10:54.62
and he just didn't seem,
I prefer the independence
00:10:54.65\00:10:58.32
to being able to drive
myself and in some countries
00:10:58.35\00:11:01.12
that would not
have been possible
00:11:01.16\00:11:02.59
in Suriname it was,
although like I said
00:11:02.62\00:11:05.49
my security officer was a
little concerned at times.
00:11:05.53\00:11:08.20
You're getting close
to a what to this day
00:11:08.23\00:11:12.63
many Americans don't
understand about Australia.
00:11:12.67\00:11:15.37
I don't know if
you remember, years ago
00:11:15.40\00:11:16.74
an Australian
PrimeMinister was lost swimming.
00:11:16.77\00:11:19.94
Drowning. Yeah.
00:11:19.97\00:11:21.31
And people can't
figure how come he was alone
00:11:21.34\00:11:23.21
well, he didn't have
any guard at that time
00:11:23.24\00:11:25.98
he just that was seen no need.
00:11:26.01\00:11:28.12
Well, I remembered that one time
00:11:28.15\00:11:29.48
I went to the supermarket
on the Sunday evening,
00:11:29.52\00:11:32.65
wearing a t-shirt, shorts
and I had a baseball cap on
00:11:32.69\00:11:35.82
and I was buying ice-cream...
00:11:35.86\00:11:38.03
And I, you know,
paid for it in the counter
00:11:38.06\00:11:41.53
and the bag boy,
put it in the bag,
00:11:41.56\00:11:44.80
handed it to me and said
00:11:44.83\00:11:46.17
"Have a good
evening Mr. Ambassador."
00:11:46.20\00:11:48.37
And I thought I was blown
00:11:48.40\00:11:50.54
you know, it goes to
show how visible one was and--
00:11:50.57\00:11:55.84
But that
actually was good for job.
00:11:55.88\00:11:57.35
That meant you were
really doing, in my view
00:11:57.38\00:11:59.35
that was an affirmation
not that a potential threat.
00:11:59.38\00:12:02.28
Oh, it wasn't
granting, but it was definitely
00:12:02.32\00:12:06.32
a case of being
visible and recognizing
00:12:06.35\00:12:10.06
that you are
actually being pretty public
00:12:10.09\00:12:11.96
which was a good
thing but it also makes you
00:12:11.99\00:12:14.53
very conscious of the importance
00:12:14.56\00:12:16.87
of being a good representative.
00:12:16.90\00:12:18.83
Right, I was about
to lead it in that.
00:12:18.87\00:12:20.20
If you are--
00:12:20.24\00:12:21.57
And as we can even
relate to being a Christian.
00:12:21.60\00:12:23.67
Absolutely.
00:12:23.71\00:12:25.04
Eventually, it's
known one way or the other
00:12:25.07\00:12:26.41
especially those of which
working in religious liberty.
00:12:26.44\00:12:29.64
I sometimes
think we don't announce
00:12:29.68\00:12:31.61
our connection often
enough but the word gets around
00:12:31.65\00:12:34.32
and then they're looking at you.
00:12:34.35\00:12:36.18
I can remember years ago
00:12:36.22\00:12:38.62
there was an
unfortunate incident
00:12:38.65\00:12:39.99
where an Adventist
college was hoping to get some
00:12:40.02\00:12:43.39
government grant
money and to get it
00:12:43.43\00:12:45.23
they challenged the churches,
00:12:45.26\00:12:47.60
the states' view on
separation of the churches
00:12:47.63\00:12:49.30
that would turn
the world on its head.
00:12:49.33\00:12:51.23
I got many, many calls
from other religious liberty
00:12:51.27\00:12:54.44
and other church groups
00:12:54.47\00:12:55.84
you know, "What is
that with you Adventist?
00:12:55.87\00:12:57.21
This is, your position, your
head,' you know, 'explain it.'"
00:12:57.24\00:12:59.14
So they've been watching.
00:12:59.17\00:13:00.51
They knew our position
and actually we're ready
00:13:00.54\00:13:03.04
to pull us back
on to our course.
00:13:03.08\00:13:06.18
So we're stand for something,
or once you stand for something
00:13:06.21\00:13:10.72
you need to be
consistent with it
00:13:10.75\00:13:12.45
'cause people are watching.
00:13:12.49\00:13:14.02
And you clearly were,
00:13:14.06\00:13:16.02
I think representing
your country in the best way
00:13:16.06\00:13:18.83
they about being with
the people and then formal,
00:13:18.86\00:13:21.50
I don't think it's
a good to witnessed
00:13:21.53\00:13:22.93
to be cruising
around in the limousine.
00:13:22.96\00:13:26.30
Which might be necessary
for security in some places.
00:13:26.33\00:13:29.00
Certainly in some places.
00:13:29.04\00:13:30.61
Well, I can see
we're at the break point
00:13:30.64\00:13:32.47
so, stay with us we'll be back
00:13:32.51\00:13:33.88
for this very
interesting discussion
00:13:33.91\00:13:35.78
with the Ambassador.
00:13:35.81\00:13:38.25