Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Nay
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000301B
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00:05 Welcome back, before the break, with Ambassador John Nay,
00:09 we were talking about moral power. 00:11 Self power and how the U.S. can project that 00:16 but how the principle of religious liberty 00:18 can be communicated internationally 00:21 and I think the United States 00:23 or its different invoice ambassadors and so on. 00:26 I think it's done certainly an admirable job, 00:28 not a perfect job 00:29 but an admirable job with doing that. 00:31 More than most of the countries. 00:32 Ah, we're not prefect, we are human 00:34 and so certainly we make mistakes 00:37 but it was an issue and outreached 00:39 to other religious communities was an issue 00:41 that I certainly was happy to engage in. 00:46 In Toronto when I was there, I was active 00:49 in reaching out to the Muslim community. 00:52 In Suriname, where there is a significant Muslim community 00:55 and the Hindu community and so on. 00:58 I found it a real privilege to have meetings with them 01:02 to visit their places of worship, 01:05 talk to them, learn more about them. 01:07 Uh, at the end of Ramadan, 01:09 going to the mosque with Muslims 01:13 to two or three different mosques. 01:16 Did you find Muslims, individual Muslims 01:20 in your different postings, did you find them anymore 01:24 informed about their faith than the average Christian is? 01:28 Well, of course... I that on a non-confrontational way. 01:30 Yeah, I was gonna say, how does that implies 01:32 that the average Christian is 01:34 or is not knowledgeable about Christianity? 01:36 It's a loaded question that want you have picked up 01:38 at it instantly but-- I think that, uh..-- 01:41 I don't think that the average Christian anymore in the west 01:43 is very informed, uh on basic talk shows 01:46 I see the questions, you know, 01:47 who was that swallowed by a whale? 01:49 You know, this sort of question, uh-- 01:50 Yeah, but they, they may not really be 01:52 active Christians, so-- 01:54 Well, but I... There are active Christians 01:56 but our culture is becoming not very knowledgeable 02:01 on the basics of the faith that we, 02:04 as the Muslims will says 02:05 that "this is the Christian west." 02:07 Mm, mm. 02:08 But, perhaps that's just nominal 02:09 and not born out of any practice. 02:11 So my question is, did you find that 02:13 that's the same as we really... 02:14 I think with most Muslims that I knew, 02:18 they really are focused on the five basic rulers, 02:24 the pillars. 02:25 Do I have the number wrong? That's what I'm thinking. 02:27 But, you know, Mohammed was the last... 02:28 I'm scared of getting a mixed up with the uh-- 02:31 Six? No, Lawrence of Arabia's books. 02:34 Isn't that the five pillars of wisdom? 02:36 I-- okay but... He caught a-- 02:39 Uh, anyway you know, Mohammed is the last prophet, 02:42 prayed five times a day, avoid pork and alcohol 02:47 and so on and that's really their focus was 02:52 live according to what Allah wanted or wants 02:56 and you know, follows the rules 03:01 and be respectful of God. 03:04 So I wouldn't say 03:06 that we talked deep theological issues, 03:09 what we were talking about really was 03:12 people in human relationships and in that respect, 03:17 I found that whether I was speaking with Turks 03:21 in Toronto where we had friends 03:23 with people from South-Asia, South-Asian background, 03:29 people from the Middle-East, Syrians and so on. 03:32 That I was speaking with other people 03:35 who had as I said in another program 03:38 the same family aspirations, 03:40 the same love for their children, 03:42 the same desire 03:43 for a good relationship with God. 03:45 And that, that's worth remembering 03:47 because, human beings 03:48 regardless of what they profess spiritually 03:50 or even if nothing, we cut from the same flesh. 03:54 And God made us all of us of a muchness 03:57 and it's only when something's really aberrant 04:01 in someone's life experience 04:02 that they deviate from that, so yeah. 04:05 I could imagine that you'd find that 04:07 but I just wanted to get your take on that 04:10 but we do need to. 04:12 I mean, that religious liberty 04:14 and may be I haven't discussed that much on this program, 04:16 our church, the Seventh Day Adventist church... 04:19 You're a member too, 04:20 as I think had a very good track record 04:22 on promoting religious liberty 04:23 But there's really two aspects on them, 04:25 was actually more than two, but as our own department is, 04:30 it's the department of public affairs, 04:35 I was really going to say to the wrong order. 04:37 Public affairs and religious liberty. 04:39 Yes. 04:40 Religious liberty is arguing for the rights 04:43 and freedom of all people to believe and practice 04:46 or disbelieve anything they want. 04:49 I mean, it's the total liberal concept, 04:51 in the best sense. 04:53 Uh, but public affairs, 04:56 is closely allied I think to mission. 05:00 It's projecting our particular identity 05:05 and our mission to other people. 05:07 And seeking to explain it. 05:08 Yeah, often it's very protocol oriented 05:10 but it goes beyond that. 05:12 You know, protocol just dignitary 05:13 dealing with dignitaries and so 05:15 but I think public affairs really covers 05:17 all of our evangelization on our viewpoint 05:21 because at the end of the day, 05:23 you know, Adventist believe 05:24 we have a special charter, don't we? 05:26 For these times 05:29 but you know, we have to follow through on that 05:32 and that we recognize Muslims or any ones. 05:34 They have their agenda, it's not improper 05:37 but it's not our agenda, so ours needs to be promoted. 05:41 Well, and that's what the Adventist church does 05:43 and active outreaching Adventist 05:49 but I absolutely agree and I also think 05:51 the Adventist church has done an excellent job 05:53 of promoting religious liberty, 05:55 now and that it is not just a self serving agenda. 06:00 No! 06:01 Because as a small, smaller church, 06:05 especially originally at the beginnings, 06:08 there was a real concern about being-- 06:11 There was a concern about but as I read the history 06:12 and you're an historian too, maybe more than me, 06:16 I will give you the credit. 06:18 But it seems to me, 06:19 while there was this low level persecution 06:23 in the United States 06:24 that the real origin of religious liberty concern 06:29 was more tied up to prophecy and then the expectation 06:31 of what would happen as we moved into the end times. 06:34 So it's always been tied up to, you know the larger context, 06:38 not immediately solving our problem. 06:41 In fact, even to this day, the some of our members 06:44 that I think have a similar view than back then 06:47 whether this was sort of a necessary conflict 06:50 and you grin and bear it and thank the lord. 06:53 So our proclamation of religious liberty 06:56 is more tied up to proclaiming a great truth 07:00 as creatures of a Creator God that we all have the dignity 07:04 and the rights to chose our way, to chose God, 07:07 or chose whatever. You know. 07:09 And that's what I was also agreeing with-- 07:12 It wasn't just so that Adventist 07:14 could avoid getting fired 07:16 for not wanting to work on Sabbath or something. 07:18 Now that's a very important function of that church-- 07:21 But I don't see that and I must admit that 07:22 I'm set sound as a variance 07:24 with other religions liberty people on that, 07:26 not that I differ but my focus, 07:29 I don't see that as the main thing we do 07:31 or the most important thing. 07:33 Day to day it might be a very practical thing 07:36 but we would be negligent 07:38 if we didn't pay attention to it 07:40 but it's not our main religious liberty message. 07:43 But we do want to help all, 07:45 including our own members who have difficulties 07:48 but you know you've lived in some countries. 07:51 Even some nominally free ones. 07:55 Singapore, which is a great country 07:56 but there was at least under previous administration, 08:00 it was pretty inflexible on certain things 08:02 I have imagined you could easily get fined 08:05 there for certain Christian activity. 08:08 Well, proselytisation is allowed 08:12 but they also are very aware 08:16 of the importance of civil order 08:18 and they are very aware of past times when they were 08:22 what they've called 'communal riots' 08:25 including when they were part of Malaysia 08:28 and then since they got independence. 08:31 They're very aware that Malaysia and Indonesia 08:33 on either side of them are far-far larger 08:37 and that their population, Muslim population in Singapore 08:42 is 15-20%. 08:44 So although proselytisation is allowed, 08:46 they want you to do it in a very careful way-- 08:49 That's right, so you could easily-- 08:52 And you might not tread on-- some of the regulations there, 08:54 even though it's not a repressive state 08:56 and in any classic sense... 08:57 But you may not get your visa renewed 08:59 if you upset the social order. 09:02 Yeah, Yeah. 09:03 But that the way obvious that it is Singapore 09:05 many times that I love it. 09:07 It's amazing to me, 09:09 you'd probably know the statistics 09:10 but you know, the population density, very high. 09:13 For that little island nation state. 09:16 But yet you could go out of the city 09:18 and you are like in the open country. 09:19 Like the zoo... Yes. 09:21 For example, it's like the middle of, 09:23 like it could be anywhere but like Borneo jungles. 09:27 Well, our daughter was born there 09:28 and then when we went back some years later 09:31 we were happy to take her to the zoo 09:32 and have a chance to actually 09:35 have a breakfast with the orangutan with a-- 09:37 And this is an ad for the zoo almost 09:40 because I've been to a lot of zoos 09:42 but that one is quite unique 09:43 because there's no real sense of fences. 09:46 Remember, there's a ditch in front of the animal 09:48 but you look them in the eye often. 09:50 Yeah, they were very nice. 09:52 Beautiful zoo but yeah, 09:57 as we were agreeing you know it's interesting 09:59 sociological and cultural challenge is to projecting, 10:03 not just Adventist beliefs 10:04 but religious liberty in general 10:06 and yet it must be done. 10:08 It is being done, 10:09 the United States is doing a good job of it 10:11 and our church is trying consistently 10:15 and we congratulate ourselves a lot, 10:17 we are not as often as well known as we could be 10:20 but I think like the United States, 10:22 the Seventh Day Adventist church has a long track record 10:25 and it's generally, it's in the right direction. 10:28 I agree, I think that we are doing a good work, 10:32 we are working with other churches 10:34 and we are doing it in a way that is advancing 10:38 the cause of religious liberty and I think that as we do that 10:42 we are uh, contributing to a cause 10:46 greater than ourselves 10:48 and it's an issue that will continue 10:51 and that as we continue to work through issues 10:54 in our society I'm sure, we'll stay active. 11:00 When I was quite a bit younger, 11:01 I remember staying up late to watch on television, 11:05 the fuzzy black and white image of the lunar landing. 11:09 The U.S. exercising its... 11:12 very obvious technological prowess 11:15 and quite power and putting a man on the moon 11:20 but in reality the power of the United States 11:23 is not primarily technological, certainly not military power, 11:28 even thought that is unquestioned 11:31 in the modern world. 11:32 The real power of any country 11:34 and I think the real power of the United States 11:36 is its moral persuasion 11:39 and it is a rather unique thing that in the modern world, 11:42 the United States acting on its constitutional principles 11:46 and in particular the principle of religious liberty 11:49 has been able to, often very effectively project 11:53 that to a world that at times is ready to kill and restrict 11:59 in the name of their own principles 12:02 but not religious liberty. 12:04 Moral Power, it's important for countries, 12:08 it's vital for individual human beings, 12:11 for individual Christians as the witness for their Lord. 12:16 For Liberty Insider 12:17 this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-09-10