Welcome back, before the
break, with Ambassador John Nay,
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we were talking
about moral power.
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Self power and how
the U.S. can project that
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but how the
principle of religious liberty
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can be
communicated internationally
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and I think the United States
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or its different
invoice ambassadors and so on.
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I think it's done
certainly an admirable job,
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not a perfect job
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but an admirable
job with doing that.
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More than most of the countries.
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Ah, we're not
prefect, we are human
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and so
certainly we make mistakes
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but it was an
issue and outreached
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to other religious
communities was an issue
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that I certainly
was happy to engage in.
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In Toronto when I
was there, I was active
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in reaching out to
the Muslim community.
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In Suriname, where there is
a significant Muslim community
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and the Hindu
community and so on.
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I found it a real privilege
to have meetings with them
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to visit their
places of worship,
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talk to them,
learn more about them.
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Uh, at the end of Ramadan,
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going to the mosque with Muslims
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to two or three
different mosques.
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Did you find
Muslims, individual Muslims
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in your different postings,
did you find them anymore
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informed about their faith
than the average Christian is?
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Well, of course... I that
on a non-confrontational way.
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Yeah, I was gonna
say, how does that implies
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that the average Christian is
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or is not knowledgeable
about Christianity?
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It's a loaded question
that want you have picked up
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at it instantly
but-- I think that, uh..--
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I don't think that the average
Christian anymore in the west
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is very informed,
uh on basic talk shows
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I see the questions, you know,
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who was that
swallowed by a whale?
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You know, this
sort of question, uh--
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Yeah, but they,
they may not really be
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active Christians, so--
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Well, but I... There
are active Christians
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but our culture is
becoming not very knowledgeable
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on the basics of
the faith that we,
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as the Muslims will says
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that "this is
the Christian west."
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Mm, mm.
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But, perhaps that's just nominal
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and not born
out of any practice.
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So my question
is, did you find that
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that's the same as we really...
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I think with most
Muslims that I knew,
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they really are focused
on the five basic rulers,
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the pillars.
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Do I have the number
wrong? That's what I'm thinking.
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But, you know,
Mohammed was the last...
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I'm scared of getting
a mixed up with the uh--
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Six? No, Lawrence
of Arabia's books.
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Isn't that the
five pillars of wisdom?
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I-- okay but... He caught a--
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Uh, anyway you know,
Mohammed is the last prophet,
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prayed five times a
day, avoid pork and alcohol
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and so on and that's
really their focus was
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live according to
what Allah wanted or wants
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and you know, follows the rules
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and be respectful of God.
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So I wouldn't say
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that we talked
deep theological issues,
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what we were
talking about really was
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people in human relationships
and in that respect,
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I found that whether I
was speaking with Turks
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in Toronto where we had friends
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with people from South-Asia,
South-Asian background,
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people from the
Middle-East, Syrians and so on.
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That I was
speaking with other people
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who had as I said
in another program
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the same family aspirations,
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the same love
for their children,
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the same desire
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for a good
relationship with God.
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And that, that's
worth remembering
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because, human beings
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regardless of what
they profess spiritually
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or even if nothing, we
cut from the same flesh.
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And God made us
all of us of a muchness
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and it's only when
something's really aberrant
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in someone's life experience
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that they deviate
from that, so yeah.
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I could imagine
that you'd find that
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but I just wanted to
get your take on that
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but we do need to.
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I mean, that religious liberty
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and may be I haven't discussed
that much on this program,
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our church, the
Seventh Day Adventist church...
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You're a member too,
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as I think had a
very good track record
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on promoting religious liberty
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But there's really
two aspects on them,
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was actually more than two,
but as our own department is,
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it's the
department of public affairs,
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I was really going to
say to the wrong order.
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Public affairs
and religious liberty.
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Yes.
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Religious liberty is
arguing for the rights
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and freedom of all
people to believe and practice
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or disbelieve
anything they want.
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I mean, it's the
total liberal concept,
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in the best sense.
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Uh, but public affairs,
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is closely allied
I think to mission.
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It's projecting
our particular identity
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and our mission to other people.
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And seeking to explain it.
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Yeah, often it's
very protocol oriented
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but it goes beyond that.
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You know,
protocol just dignitary
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dealing with dignitaries and so
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but I think public
affairs really covers
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all of our
evangelization on our viewpoint
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because at the end of the day,
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you know, Adventist believe
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we have a special
charter, don't we?
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For these times
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but you know, we have
to follow through on that
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and that we
recognize Muslims or any ones.
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They have their
agenda, it's not improper
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but it's not our agenda,
so ours needs to be promoted.
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Well, and that's what
the Adventist church does
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and active outreaching Adventist
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but I absolutely
agree and I also think
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the Adventist church
has done an excellent job
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of promoting religious liberty,
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now and that it is not
just a self serving agenda.
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No!
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Because as a
small, smaller church,
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especially
originally at the beginnings,
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there was a real
concern about being--
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There was a concern
about but as I read the history
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and you're an historian
too, maybe more than me,
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I will give you the credit.
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But it seems to me,
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while there was this
low level persecution
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in the United States
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that the real origin of
religious liberty concern
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was more tied up to prophecy
and then the expectation
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of what would happen as
we moved into the end times.
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So it's always been tied up
to, you know the larger context,
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not immediately
solving our problem.
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In fact, even to this
day, the some of our members
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that I think have a
similar view than back then
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whether this was sort
of a necessary conflict
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and you grin and bear
it and thank the lord.
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So our proclamation
of religious liberty
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is more tied up to
proclaiming a great truth
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as creatures of a Creator
God that we all have the dignity
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and the rights to
chose our way, to chose God,
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or chose whatever. You know.
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And that's what I
was also agreeing with--
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It wasn't just so that Adventist
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could avoid getting fired
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for not wanting to work
on Sabbath or something.
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Now that's a very important
function of that church--
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But I don't see that
and I must admit that
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I'm set sound as a variance
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with other religions
liberty people on that,
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not that I differ but my focus,
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I don't see that as
the main thing we do
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or the most important thing.
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Day to day it might
be a very practical thing
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but we would be negligent
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if we didn't pay attention to it
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but it's not our main
religious liberty message.
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But we do want to help all,
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including our own
members who have difficulties
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but you know you've
lived in some countries.
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Even some nominally free ones.
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Singapore, which
is a great country
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but there was at least
under previous administration,
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it was pretty
inflexible on certain things
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I have imagined you
could easily get fined
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there for certain
Christian activity.
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Well, proselytisation is allowed
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but they also are very aware
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of the importance of civil order
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and they are very aware
of past times when they were
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what they've
called 'communal riots'
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including when they
were part of Malaysia
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and then since
they got independence.
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They're very aware
that Malaysia and Indonesia
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on either side of
them are far-far larger
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and that their population,
Muslim population in Singapore
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is 15-20%.
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So although
proselytisation is allowed,
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they want you to do it
in a very careful way--
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That's right, so
you could easily--
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And you might not tread on--
some of the regulations there,
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even though it's
not a repressive state
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and in any classic sense...
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But you may not
get your visa renewed
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if you upset the social order.
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Yeah, Yeah.
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But that the way
obvious that it is Singapore
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many times that I love it.
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It's amazing to me,
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you'd probably
know the statistics
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but you know, the
population density, very high.
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For that little
island nation state.
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But yet you could
go out of the city
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and you are like
in the open country.
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Like the zoo... Yes.
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For example, it's
like the middle of,
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like it could be anywhere
but like Borneo jungles.
00:09:23.66\00:09:27.36
Well, our
daughter was born there
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and then when we
went back some years later
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we were happy to
take her to the zoo
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and have a chance to actually
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have a breakfast with
the orangutan with a--
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And this is an ad
for the zoo almost
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because I've
been to a lot of zoos
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but that one is quite unique
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because there's no
real sense of fences.
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Remember, there's a
ditch in front of the animal
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but you look
them in the eye often.
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Yeah, they were very nice.
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Beautiful zoo but yeah,
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as we were agreeing
you know it's interesting
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sociological and cultural
challenge is to projecting,
00:09:59.29\00:10:03.16
not just Adventist beliefs
00:10:03.20\00:10:04.53
but religious liberty in general
00:10:04.57\00:10:06.94
and yet it must be done.
00:10:06.97\00:10:08.30
It is being done,
00:10:08.34\00:10:09.67
the United States is
doing a good job of it
00:10:09.70\00:10:11.27
and our church is
trying consistently
00:10:11.31\00:10:15.88
and we
congratulate ourselves a lot,
00:10:15.91\00:10:17.55
we are not as often as
well known as we could be
00:10:17.58\00:10:20.25
but I think like
the United States,
00:10:20.28\00:10:22.18
the Seventh Day Adventist
church has a long track record
00:10:22.22\00:10:25.29
and it's generally,
it's in the right direction.
00:10:25.32\00:10:28.52
I agree, I think that
we are doing a good work,
00:10:28.56\00:10:32.39
we are working
with other churches
00:10:32.43\00:10:34.33
and we are doing it in
a way that is advancing
00:10:34.36\00:10:38.47
the cause of religious liberty
and I think that as we do that
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we are uh,
contributing to a cause
00:10:42.64\00:10:46.51
greater than ourselves
00:10:46.54\00:10:48.54
and it's an issue
that will continue
00:10:48.58\00:10:51.45
and that as we
continue to work through issues
00:10:51.48\00:10:54.88
in our society I'm
sure, we'll stay active.
00:10:54.92\00:11:00.02
When I was quite a bit younger,
00:11:00.06\00:11:01.86
I remember staying up
late to watch on television,
00:11:01.89\00:11:05.26
the fuzzy black and white
image of the lunar landing.
00:11:05.29\00:11:09.06
The U.S. exercising its...
00:11:09.10\00:11:12.30
very obvious
technological prowess
00:11:12.33\00:11:14.97
and quite power and
putting a man on the moon
00:11:15.00\00:11:20.28
but in reality the
power of the United States
00:11:20.31\00:11:23.31
is not primarily technological,
certainly not military power,
00:11:23.35\00:11:28.42
even thought
that is unquestioned
00:11:28.45\00:11:31.05
in the modern world.
00:11:31.09\00:11:32.42
The real power of any country
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and I think the real
power of the United States
00:11:34.66\00:11:36.76
is its moral persuasion
00:11:36.79\00:11:39.26
and it is a rather unique
thing that in the modern world,
00:11:39.29\00:11:42.76
the United States acting on
its constitutional principles
00:11:42.80\00:11:46.33
and in particular the
principle of religious liberty
00:11:46.37\00:11:49.14
has been able to, often
very effectively project
00:11:49.17\00:11:53.38
that to a world that at times
is ready to kill and restrict
00:11:53.41\00:11:59.61
in the name of
their own principles
00:11:59.65\00:12:02.75
but not religious liberty.
00:12:02.78\00:12:04.55
Moral Power, it's
important for countries,
00:12:04.59\00:12:08.82
it's vital for
individual human beings,
00:12:08.86\00:12:11.83
for individual Christians
as the witness for their Lord.
00:12:11.86\00:12:16.26
For Liberty Insider
00:12:16.30\00:12:17.63
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:17.67\00:12:19.50