Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Nay
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000301A
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00:22 Welcome to 'The Liberty Insider.'
00:24 This is a program bringing you up-to-date news, 00:26 views and discussion on religious liberty concerns 00:29 in the United States and around the world. 00:31 My name is Lincoln Steed 00:34 and I'm Editor of Liberty Magazine 00:36 and my guest is Ambassador John Nay. 00:39 Welcome, John. Thank you. 00:42 May be we'll get into some of your career 00:44 but your last job before your retirement 00:46 was ambassador to Suriname. 00:49 Yes. 00:52 That's not as beach as another occasion you tell me 00:56 that there's not the surf in the sand there like 00:58 I'd imagined but a very nice climate. 01:00 But you also had some responsibility 01:02 at one point for the US looking toward pacific, 01:04 the pacific region. 01:06 And I'm from that area and I'd like to talk to you 01:10 a little bit about mission-- 01:12 Okay. 01:13 For you in your job, mission was representing 01:15 the Untied States-- 01:18 But as Christians our mission is to represent 01:21 the kingdom of heaven and reach out. 01:23 And when I grew up in Australia 01:25 that was the mission field for Australia 01:26 was the South Pacific region. 01:28 You know and I would-- 01:30 Didn't seem like a tough thing for me 01:31 but I know many of the missionaries 01:32 really sacrificed and usually 01:36 the wife's health suffered 01:37 and sometimes they have to come back. 01:40 But what was interesting a little different 01:41 from your service I think it used to be 01:44 when someone went as a missionary 01:46 that was a lifelong calling, they never came back. 01:49 Right. 01:50 And I'm sure you accepted it as a career to always represent 01:54 wherever you were sent in the United States. 01:56 But how do you think we can-- 01:58 Can you see any parallels 02:00 or lessons from your own service 02:03 and thinking about the Pacific Whale Mission field 02:05 still continue strongly? 02:08 How can we project, in particular 02:10 that part of the world religion generally 02:14 but our religious liberty values? 02:16 What is the challenge? 02:17 Well, there-- I mean there are certainly 02:19 some parallels too in terms of whether you're in diplomacy 02:24 in the Foreign Service. 02:25 You're wanted to make sure that you learn the culture, 02:28 interact well with the people. 02:30 These are good points. 02:31 That's exactly what I had in mind. 02:33 Preferably learn the language. 02:36 Be understanding about cultural differences 02:40 and engage and outreach. 02:42 So all of those would hold true also for missionaries. 02:47 Now in the Foreign Service we never stayed 02:50 in one place more than four years consecutively 02:55 and part of that is because they wanted to be sure 02:59 that we didn't go native, so to speak, 03:02 that we didn't become more empathetic 03:04 with the country where we were living-- 03:05 That's the part I'd have imagined. 03:07 Than with our home country because of course, 03:09 we were representing the United States. 03:12 With the missionary this would be one difference 03:15 where if somebody dedicates their life to one area 03:19 and builds up the church and becomes converse 03:25 into the language that may be isn't used elsewhere, 03:28 there'd be more reason to stay long term. 03:30 But I can remember as a kid seeing 03:32 a few missionaries that had gone native in it. 03:35 Whether it harmed their outreach I don't know, 03:37 but I think it limited them personally. 03:39 That's not really an ideal situation. 03:41 Certainly for their children, 03:42 I knew, some of the kids came back and-- 03:44 Yes, kids will have trouble adjusting. 03:46 They were not really Australians 03:48 in particular where I was. 03:51 But I thought a lot about mission service 03:54 and how it might relate to or projecting 03:56 our religious liberty ideas. 03:58 And you gave a couple of very practical points. 04:01 It's not enough just to proclaim 04:04 that you have rights 04:06 and that they should grant them. 04:08 You've really got to get onside with people 04:09 and understand the governmental system in it, 04:11 if it's in another country. 04:12 Understand the society. 04:14 May be not always speak the language, 04:16 but speak the language enough to speak on that level 04:19 in the context that they have. 04:21 Even within the United States its just strikes me 04:24 a lot of the public disagreements over 04:29 how religious liberty will be applied 04:31 really talking across at each other. 04:33 Its not true communication. 04:36 Well, and so often its so easy to tell people 04:39 how to do something and you almost come across 04:42 as if you're shaking your finger at them 04:45 unless you're really doing it by example, 04:49 you don't windup having the kind of effect you want. 04:51 And you'd mentioned in an earlier, 04:54 previous program that the United States 04:57 could be seen that way sometimes in its far ordeal-- 04:59 Sometimes. 05:00 And area inconsistencies could catch up this, 05:03 so it means that we need to make sure 05:06 that we apply these principles within our own system 05:09 as well as overseas. 05:12 Let me ask you something, 05:13 I'd believe it was after you had well, 05:16 may be not quite but you would, 05:19 pretty much at the end of your service 05:20 but I was taken in a negative sense 05:24 with then Secretary of State, 05:26 Hillary Clinton's comment at one point 05:29 that they would be requiring countries 05:33 that we deal with to at here to our principles 05:36 of granting gay rights and so on. 05:40 That this would be a prime requirement 05:44 and I saw a danger in this superseding 05:47 or obscuring, I previously stated emphasis 05:52 on civil rights in general 05:54 and religious liberty in particular. 05:57 Well, she is an advocate for human rights in general. 06:03 She's been a very strong advocate 06:04 for woman's rights and I think that 06:07 she would've viewed this as just as she says, 06:13 "Woman's rights are human rights." 06:16 That is her general perception of human rights in general 06:20 and that would include what you're referring to. 06:23 At the same time the United States 06:26 has multiple interests with every country. 06:29 There are countries including very friendly countries 06:32 that we're allies with that 06:33 don't view religious liberty in the same way we do. 06:37 Whether you're speaking of France 06:39 or Germany or Belgium or Israel. 06:43 We had-- we take a different view 06:45 and this gets written up 06:46 in the International Religious Freedom Report. 06:49 But it doesn't mean that we destroy our relations 06:53 with these countries over one issue. 06:56 What limitedly committed again and I would agree with you. 06:59 And it would seem to me quite a platform, 07:02 the prioritizing difference 07:05 which could mean religious liberty 07:06 but probably not you would say, 07:08 because she would personally still be committed to it. 07:11 There are many countries that 07:13 that statement alone would alienate them 07:16 because they would not 07:18 being inclined to see that issue. 07:20 Whereas I haven't yet found any country 07:22 or people or an individual, 07:24 nobody's against religious liberty. 07:25 They all see it very differently. 07:27 So when you get down to defining it, 07:29 but as a concept, its positive. 07:32 I don't think I mean, its negative 07:34 to a country like Saudi Arabia, when we come at them, 07:37 but you know, they don't say, they're never gonna say, 07:39 "We're against religious freedom." 07:42 Well, of course, yeah, if it meant the freedom 07:44 to convert away from Islam. 07:46 Is that-- 07:48 But they believe they have religious freedom. 07:51 Like I remember years ago hearing a BBC interview 07:55 with the foreign minister of the Maldives 07:58 and they asked him about the religious freedom. 08:00 He says, "We have full religious freedom 08:02 in our country," and then he said that, 08:05 you know, its not really an issue in our country 08:07 because the overwhelming majority 08:10 are one faith and so the-- 08:12 Whole Maldives are-- 08:13 I didn't wanted to spell out what they-- 08:14 If you convert away then you can lose 08:16 your Maldivian citizenship. 08:18 Yeah, so the interviewer said, "Well, you know, that's good." 08:20 He says, "Now I'm a Christian, 08:22 if I visited then would I be granted 08:24 my full religious freedom?" 08:26 And that minister said, "Certainly not." 08:28 He says, "We must well invite Al-Qaeda into our country." 08:33 I thought it was like hyped terribly. 08:35 But what he really meant was everyone's comfortable 08:38 with what they have. 08:39 We call it religious liberty 08:41 even that doesn't match up much with anyone else's view. 08:44 So I don't think anyone's gonna say 08:46 they're against it. 08:47 In practice there's some problematic areas. 08:50 So I don't think that the US insisting 08:53 on religious freedom 08:54 is automatically an alienating thing. 08:55 But insisting on something that 08:57 we've done is let's just a say a moral 09:00 or societal experiment many countries that's aberrant, 09:05 they're not gonna feel comfortable. 09:07 I just wonder if that would get in the way 09:09 of then pushing the real universal value 09:12 of religious liberty at the same time. 09:14 You know, when you have a principle 09:18 of believing in human rights, 09:22 again you don't want to destroy your relationship 09:24 with that country over one issue 09:26 but neither should you, 09:27 if you believe it's a principle, 09:29 neither should you say, well, 09:33 because it might bother you we therefore won't raise it. 09:37 And during the apartheid era in South Africa 09:42 when we would say things about 09:44 criticizing the social system there, 09:48 yes it offended the government. 09:50 When we sent an African-American 09:52 a black Ambassador to South Africa, 09:55 they weren't very happy about it. 09:57 Do you think that was by chance 09:59 or really tried to approach like that? 10:01 We would want to make it that way. 10:02 It was deliberate. 10:04 And the point is at times you do need to go ahead 10:10 and say, "Our principle is this, 10:14 this is what we believe is right." 10:16 And the president, now you mentioned 10:18 Secretary Hillary Clinton-- 10:21 It was been a good support of religious liberty. 10:23 I'm just generally speaking, I'm not-- 10:24 And the president also 10:26 and during his recent trip to Africa, 10:28 even though he knew it would not be particularly welcomed 10:32 he did also make statements that it was important 10:36 that Kenya in that particular case, 10:41 treat homosexuals and give kindly and treat them, 10:47 give them the same human rights everybody else has. 10:49 He was correct on that because our viewers 10:52 may or may not know, depending on 10:54 where they're watching, 10:55 of course this is a global program, 10:58 American united-- 11:00 Evangelicals from the United States 11:02 have made some special missions to Africa 11:05 and several other countries as well as that 11:07 and they seem to have promoted heavily 11:09 the idea of heavy civil penalties against 11:13 gay activity including even the death penalty for-- 11:16 Un-repented gays in-- In Uganda. 11:19 Uganda for one and another neighboring country. 11:22 Nigeria also I think its come up. 11:24 Yes, I mean-- Well, that nobody within-- 11:28 Is committing moral sense should support that. 11:30 I know, but you know, if one is going 11:33 to promote certain abridgment of human rights 11:38 then you know, the question becomes 11:40 where do you stop? 11:41 And Iran has executed people, 11:45 teenagers because they were gay 11:49 and so I agree how can we say that-- 11:55 what I agree with is that we must not shrink 11:58 from saying our principle is we believe in human rights 12:03 and in religious liberty also 12:06 and we think you ought to respect that 12:10 and then recognize also that we have 12:14 a large multilateral relationship 12:17 with nearly every country around the world 12:21 and that you don't destroy your relationship 12:24 on the basis of one issue. 12:25 You continue labor together as it worth it. 12:28 And I believe in the post World War II 12:30 period the US has done wonderful things in its, 12:35 I was gonna say witness using a moral spiritual word 12:37 but its insistence to other countries 12:39 that they make efforts in the right direction. 12:42 Its not always been the direct relationship. 12:44 Some countries have to be dragged kicking 12:46 and screaming others I think-- 12:49 I've seen a few cases where I think US insistence 12:52 gives them cover even with their own people 12:54 to modify their laws. 12:57 It does. 12:58 You know, one President Carter implemented the requirement 13:02 to have annual human rights reports on every country. 13:07 There were a lot of people who were unhappy about it, 13:09 other countries, many of them would've been unhappy. 13:10 There were people in the Foreign Service 13:12 who didn't like this requirement particularly 13:17 and thought it made us look a little preachy 13:19 and at times it does. 13:21 But it has turned into actually a wonderful tool 13:26 of being able to assess in a similar format 13:31 every year the state of human rights in the world. 13:34 As I said it's a tool that our religious liberty 13:36 department uses greatly. 13:39 Stay with us. We need to take a break now. 13:41 We'll be back shortly 13:43 to continue this discussion with Ambassador Nay. 13:46 Thank you. |
Revised 2015-09-10