Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Nay
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000300B
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00:06 Welcome back to 'The Liberty Insider.'
00:08 Before the break with guest, Ambassador John Nay, 00:11 we were talking about his service 00:13 to the United States 00:16 ending up as an ambassador to Suriname 00:19 and how you got into that 00:21 and I'd like to put it in a larger discussion 00:23 but before that I've been staring 00:26 sometimes at your face, sometimes at your suit. 00:29 Sometimes there was a pin there and sometimes not. 00:31 But it's there now. Tell us about that little pin 00:34 with a palm tree coming out of the top. 00:36 When I was in Suriname I learned that... 00:40 it was going to-- had been the 220th anniversary 00:43 since the first US consulate had been opened in Suriname 00:47 in what had been Dutch Guiana in 1790. 00:50 So that was a pretty early establishment there. 00:54 Anyway we had these pins made up and also 00:58 tend to give them out to many guests 00:59 as a way of promoting US-Suriname relations. 01:02 So you see the US flag-- 01:03 I don't know if the camera can zoom in a bit. 01:05 But there's the US flag and the Suriname-- 01:07 And the Suriname flag 01:08 along with 220 years written below it 01:11 and a palm tree to symbolize again our effort 01:14 to promote protecting the environment, 01:17 protecting Suriname's wonderful Amazon forest. 01:21 So we had several hundred of them made up and-- 01:25 That's very nice. 01:27 I still wear it sometimes. Good reminder of your service. 01:29 When I first saw it, it looked a bit 01:31 like one of those different Masonic pins 01:33 that I see people-- 01:35 As an aside you know, we've had programs on masonry 01:38 and its influence on the US history 01:40 and how it relates to Christianity. 01:44 But a few days ago a real-estate agent showed 01:48 this little property. 01:50 He led slip that he was a mason and he started pitching to me. 01:53 So I joked, I said, 01:55 "Oh, you mean I can join and then handshake it." 01:58 So he shook and he says, "I just gave it to you." 02:02 Very above board, but anyhow that's an aside. 02:05 That's not an area that I don't think... 02:08 Seventh-day Adventists are advised 02:09 to give it to masonry. 02:12 I have an Adventist friend who is a mason. 02:15 Yes, I know there are many of them. 02:17 Ellen White had some stern things to tell. 02:19 She was the Adventist, one of the Adventist pioneers 02:22 and the-- many of the early Adventist ministers were masons 02:27 and she said this was a conflict 02:28 between their advent hope. 02:31 But it comes down to a matter of conscience obviously. 02:34 For many people and this guy and I agreed 02:36 that it's sort of a social club for most of them. 02:39 Yes, that's a good point, 02:40 because at the establishment of the US and we were talking-- 02:45 Most of the presidents, US presidents 02:47 Yes, we deal with the religious right 02:50 and their misunderstandings of the founding 02:53 and the constitutional guarantee 02:56 of religious liberty. 02:57 They don't like the separation of church and state, 02:59 many of them. 03:01 And they'd like to see the US as a Christian nation 03:03 established with the former government 03:05 to advance Christianity. 03:07 That's not true. 03:08 What is true and Ellen White talks about it 03:10 is the deep Masonic connections 03:12 between the establishment of the United States. 03:15 Most of them were masons 03:17 and Washington D.C. is laid out on a Masonic grid. 03:20 Symbolism everywhere and all I figure is that 03:24 it got a free run in the US 03:26 because masonry had been harassed 03:28 by the Catholic Church historically 03:30 and here is the Protestant nation, 03:32 anything the Catholic Church were so opposed to 03:35 should they sort of gave and passed it. 03:37 And again whether you have the Lions or the Rotary 03:40 or at that time the Masons, some of it was-- 03:42 They did many good public service projects, it's true. 03:46 And no, they were not seen negatively there at all 03:48 and nor particularly today. 03:51 I think people have forgotten what was really in play. 03:55 You know, very specifically they're in the 1830s 03:58 the Anti-Masonic party 03:59 that was specifically attacking-- 04:01 Thanks for the reminder, I'd forgotten that. 04:02 The first third party 04:04 in the US presidential election. 04:07 But at this point I think it's-- 04:11 It's devolved into a club. Yeah, community club. 04:14 But anyhow on your career again. 04:18 You found this very rewarding 04:20 and then as you said before, you found it a good adjunct 04:23 to your Adventist identity in that conflict at all 04:27 and projecting the higher values that the US stands for, 04:31 you know, like individuals, 04:33 I think it's not always quite lived up to them. 04:36 But at least that's a high, high ordeal 04:39 that's rather unique in the modern world, 04:41 if you really analyze them. 04:42 In fact I, I keep hearing a claim, 04:48 may be it's true that the US Constitution 04:50 is the oldest constitution in the US today. 04:53 In the world. 04:54 In the world, I'm sorry in the world today, yeah. 04:57 I don't know if that's complete true though. 04:59 My understanding is 05:00 that it is the oldest written constitution. 05:05 So, you know, of course 05:06 the British Constitution is not written 05:08 and it's been evolving over the centuries. 05:10 Yes, that was the one I thought of 05:12 and I was milling through it 05:14 because they don't have a formal single document. 05:17 Right. 05:19 But its partly oral, partly different laws and agreements. 05:23 In the minds of the British 05:25 I think their legal framework is pretty plain. 05:28 Yes, but of course-- 05:30 May be doesn't qualify 05:31 as a single written constitution. 05:32 We just celebrated the 800th anniversary 05:34 of the Magna Carta 05:36 and that's considered to be a fundamental part 05:41 of the British Constitution and the rule of law-- 05:44 'Cause King John rejected it immediately 05:46 and got the pope to say that it was invalid. 05:49 But they kept coming back to-- 05:51 It laid the groundwork here on. 05:53 Now, United States is not the oldest republic 05:57 in the world. 05:58 San Marino claims that title. 06:01 But I think it's the oldest written constitution. 06:04 It certainly had a relatively long existence 06:09 and it's hasn't yet, as it may prophetically 06:13 there's some indication that may come a time 06:15 when the US turns on the constitution, 06:17 but not yet. 06:19 It's held up pretty well. 06:20 Yes, and I, 06:21 I don't see how it would work 06:24 that we would simply overturn in. 06:26 Obviously interpretations changed. 06:29 Our interpretation of the constitution 06:32 over the centuries has evolved. 06:36 No, I've come to the point, I don't believe 06:39 short of the dissolution of the republic totally. 06:41 I don't think it's going to be overturned 06:43 in any formal way. 06:45 But it's always possible that it. 06:47 you know, it's under glass and seen as a high historic... 06:54 talisman, but daily people do something different. 06:57 I think there could be a divergence 06:58 of how it works. 07:01 But not yet right and the Supreme Court 07:03 is diligent about that allowing 07:05 for a little living constitution to leeway. 07:08 I think it's functioned very well. 07:10 And yet one has to be concerned now and then. 07:14 If you remember of course, as everybody does, 07:16 the attacks of 9/11 07:19 and the sort of reaction that followed 07:22 where Congress was prepared to... 07:27 pass much more expansive 07:32 security observation type laws then, 07:35 then they're even comfortable with now. 07:37 Now some of them are backing away from it. 07:38 Thankfully. What was that statement? 07:40 Who was it that said 07:42 for those that are willing to give up 07:44 essential liberty for a security? 07:46 They don't deserve them. 07:47 They don't deserve liberty or security. 07:49 That's right. 07:51 You know, at one point the Bush administration 07:53 tried to argue in court 07:55 that they had the right to arrest an American citizen 08:00 and hold him without access to attorneys and without trial 08:04 indefinitely on a security basis 08:07 and that eventually they lost that argument 08:11 but they made that argument in the... 08:15 in the 2004-05-06 time frame, which was very disturbing. 08:20 It was actually an executive order 08:22 about this present administration that's similar. 08:26 So one cannot discount that it's possible 08:31 the civil liberties can be restricted 08:33 much more than one would wish. 08:35 And that's what happened with Rome 08:36 which I don't think is a very good parallel 08:38 to the United States. 08:39 I believe the best 08:41 historical parallel to the US is Venice. 08:44 Oh, okay. 08:45 The trading-- 08:47 I don't know if they were ever public, 08:50 but it was really, 08:51 Venice was pretty much a self-rule city state. 08:54 But looking at Rome you know, it had the senators 08:57 and senators rather in the similar-- 08:59 apparently similar system 09:01 and it was all of the cascading threats to Rome 09:03 where they gave it away and eventually 09:06 passed over power to the Caesars. 09:09 But some of the same dynamic is at work here 09:12 and you know we hope and pray that the liberal constitution 09:16 or responsible representative role continues. 09:21 And you were part of ensuring 09:23 and that's projection of that that continues. 09:26 And if a terrorist attack occurs again 09:29 which at some point may well. 09:30 Certainly, at some point. 09:34 What we also need to be is vigilant 09:36 that we don't overreact and give up more liberty 09:40 and more of our freedoms 09:42 due to an attack like that then we would otherwise. 09:45 Yeah. 09:46 This is a case where Israel as a country 09:50 has gotten used to the kind of threat and attacks 09:54 and heightens security that they have to maintain. 09:57 United States is not used to that 10:00 and so when attacks come its shocking 10:03 and then there's may be a reaction. 10:06 Yeah, we were all shocked and it felt like 10:09 an existential threat 10:10 even though in afternoon meetings 10:11 I've tried to remind people 10:13 that the whole German air force were bombing London 10:16 and the southeast for weeks on end, 10:18 and there was never any question 10:20 that the England would survive. 10:22 Look what I mean short of invasion 10:23 but I mean the bombing wasn't destroying them. 10:25 So we need a little fortitude both in civil affairs 10:30 and as Jesus said, 10:31 "Though you live a godly life you will suffer persecution." 10:33 So stick with it. Yeah, okay. 10:36 Again, I've asked you on another program, 10:39 any takeaway on this someone that entered 10:42 into service for the country and what it meant to you? 10:46 Well, just I think the public service 10:48 is an opportunity and one where we get the chance 10:53 to really represent our faith and represent our country 10:57 and to uphold the kind of human rights, freedoms 11:03 and very much including religious liberty 11:05 that we find so important. 11:10 When I was much younger, I remember being inspired 11:13 by the song "Dare to be a Daniel, 11:15 dare to stand alone." 11:17 That's certainly was very much the case 11:19 with Daniel as a young man as he began a life 11:22 of government service in as far away Babylon. 11:26 But in reality it was daring to serve 11:30 that was his real test. 11:31 How that man of god, that prophet, 11:36 that statesman could deal with successive administrations 11:40 not changes by the ballot but by the edge of the sword. 11:44 Total sea changes in the ruling elite 11:48 and yet through it all he could serve admirably 11:51 and responsibly and very openly in the name of his God 11:56 as the King Darius said, "Oh, Daniel I know 12:00 that your God can save you from the lions." 12:05 That is the bravery and the witness 12:08 I think of Daniel that we too can exemplify in our age. 12:13 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-09-10