Welcome back to
'The Liberty Insider.'
00:00:06.23\00:00:08.00
Before the break with
guest, Ambassador John Nay,
00:00:08.04\00:00:11.47
we were talking
about his service
00:00:11.51\00:00:13.84
to the United States
00:00:13.88\00:00:16.24
ending up as an
ambassador to Suriname
00:00:16.28\00:00:19.41
and how you got into that
00:00:19.45\00:00:21.22
and I'd like to put
it in a larger discussion
00:00:21.25\00:00:23.22
but before that
I've been staring
00:00:23.25\00:00:26.45
sometimes at your
face, sometimes at your suit.
00:00:26.49\00:00:28.99
Sometimes there was a
pin there and sometimes not.
00:00:29.02\00:00:31.53
But it's there now.
Tell us about that little pin
00:00:31.56\00:00:34.20
with a palm tree
coming out of the top.
00:00:34.23\00:00:36.87
When I was in
Suriname I learned that...
00:00:36.90\00:00:40.27
it was going to-- had
been the 220th anniversary
00:00:40.30\00:00:43.44
since the first US consulate
had been opened in Suriname
00:00:43.47\00:00:47.24
in what had been
Dutch Guiana in 1790.
00:00:47.28\00:00:50.95
So that was a pretty
early establishment there.
00:00:50.98\00:00:54.12
Anyway we had these
pins made up and also
00:00:54.15\00:00:57.99
tend to give them
out to many guests
00:00:58.02\00:00:59.55
as a way of promoting
US-Suriname relations.
00:00:59.59\00:01:02.02
So you see the US flag--
00:01:02.06\00:01:03.53
I don't know if the
camera can zoom in a bit.
00:01:03.56\00:01:05.76
But there's the US
flag and the Suriname--
00:01:05.79\00:01:07.50
And the Suriname flag
00:01:07.53\00:01:08.86
along with 220
years written below it
00:01:08.90\00:01:11.30
and a palm tree to
symbolize again our effort
00:01:11.33\00:01:14.57
to promote
protecting the environment,
00:01:14.60\00:01:17.24
protecting Suriname's
wonderful Amazon forest.
00:01:17.27\00:01:21.21
So we had several
hundred of them made up and--
00:01:21.24\00:01:25.61
That's very nice.
00:01:25.65\00:01:26.98
I still wear it sometimes.
Good reminder of your service.
00:01:27.02\00:01:29.78
When I first saw
it, it looked a bit
00:01:29.82\00:01:31.15
like one of those
different Masonic pins
00:01:31.19\00:01:33.29
that I see people--
00:01:33.32\00:01:35.62
As an aside you know,
we've had programs on masonry
00:01:35.66\00:01:38.89
and its
influence on the US history
00:01:38.93\00:01:40.90
and how it
relates to Christianity.
00:01:40.93\00:01:44.20
But a few days ago a
real-estate agent showed
00:01:44.23\00:01:48.44
this little property.
00:01:48.47\00:01:50.51
He led slip that he was a mason
and he started pitching to me.
00:01:50.54\00:01:53.64
So I joked, I said,
00:01:53.68\00:01:55.01
"Oh, you mean I can
join and then handshake it."
00:01:55.04\00:01:58.21
So he shook and he
says, "I just gave it to you."
00:01:58.25\00:02:02.42
Very above board, but
anyhow that's an aside.
00:02:02.45\00:02:05.25
That's not an area
that I don't think...
00:02:05.29\00:02:08.42
Seventh-day
Adventists are advised
00:02:08.46\00:02:09.92
to give it to masonry.
00:02:09.96\00:02:12.29
I have an Adventist
friend who is a mason.
00:02:12.33\00:02:15.60
Yes, I know
there are many of them.
00:02:15.63\00:02:16.97
Ellen White had some
stern things to tell.
00:02:17.00\00:02:19.90
She was the Adventist,
one of the Adventist pioneers
00:02:19.93\00:02:22.90
and the-- many of the early
Adventist ministers were masons
00:02:22.94\00:02:26.98
and she said this was a conflict
00:02:27.01\00:02:28.64
between their advent hope.
00:02:28.68\00:02:31.61
But it comes down to a
matter of conscience obviously.
00:02:31.65\00:02:34.12
For many people and
this guy and I agreed
00:02:34.15\00:02:36.05
that it's sort of a
social club for most of them.
00:02:36.08\00:02:39.35
Yes, that's a good point,
00:02:39.39\00:02:40.72
because at the establishment
of the US and we were talking--
00:02:40.76\00:02:45.23
Most of the
presidents, US presidents
00:02:45.26\00:02:47.20
Yes, we deal with
the religious right
00:02:47.23\00:02:50.57
and their misunderstandings
of the founding
00:02:50.60\00:02:53.64
and the constitutional guarantee
00:02:53.67\00:02:56.14
of religious liberty.
00:02:56.17\00:02:57.51
They don't like the
separation of church and state,
00:02:57.54\00:02:59.87
many of them.
00:02:59.91\00:03:01.24
And they'd like to see
the US as a Christian nation
00:03:01.28\00:03:03.68
established with
the former government
00:03:03.71\00:03:05.81
to advance Christianity.
00:03:05.85\00:03:07.32
That's not true.
00:03:07.35\00:03:08.68
What is true and
Ellen White talks about it
00:03:08.72\00:03:10.82
is the deep Masonic connections
00:03:10.85\00:03:12.89
between the establishment
of the United States.
00:03:12.92\00:03:15.46
Most of them were masons
00:03:15.86\00:03:17.19
and Washington D.C. is
laid out on a Masonic grid.
00:03:17.23\00:03:20.73
Symbolism everywhere
and all I figure is that
00:03:20.76\00:03:24.33
it got a free run in the US
00:03:24.37\00:03:26.60
because masonry
had been harassed
00:03:26.63\00:03:28.40
by the Catholic
Church historically
00:03:28.44\00:03:30.74
and here is the
Protestant nation,
00:03:30.77\00:03:32.74
anything the Catholic
Church were so opposed to
00:03:32.77\00:03:34.98
should they sort
of gave and passed it.
00:03:35.01\00:03:37.38
And again whether you
have the Lions or the Rotary
00:03:37.41\00:03:40.72
or at that time the
Masons, some of it was--
00:03:40.75\00:03:42.68
They did many good public
service projects, it's true.
00:03:42.72\00:03:46.65
And no, they were not
seen negatively there at all
00:03:46.69\00:03:48.82
and nor particularly today.
00:03:48.86\00:03:51.09
I think people have forgotten
what was really in play.
00:03:51.13\00:03:55.36
You know, very specifically
they're in the 1830s
00:03:55.40\00:03:58.13
the Anti-Masonic party
00:03:58.17\00:03:59.50
that was
specifically attacking--
00:03:59.53\00:04:01.27
Thanks for the
reminder, I'd forgotten that.
00:04:01.30\00:04:02.64
The first third party
00:04:02.67\00:04:04.54
in the US presidential election.
00:04:04.57\00:04:07.64
But at this point I think it's--
00:04:07.68\00:04:11.25
It's devolved into a
club. Yeah, community club.
00:04:11.28\00:04:14.62
But anyhow on your career again.
00:04:14.65\00:04:18.75
You found this very rewarding
00:04:18.79\00:04:20.32
and then as you said before,
you found it a good adjunct
00:04:20.36\00:04:23.63
to your Adventist
identity in that conflict at all
00:04:23.66\00:04:27.56
and projecting the higher
values that the US stands for,
00:04:27.60\00:04:31.33
you know, like individuals,
00:04:31.37\00:04:33.74
I think it's not
always quite lived up to them.
00:04:33.77\00:04:36.47
But at least
that's a high, high ordeal
00:04:36.50\00:04:39.44
that's rather
unique in the modern world,
00:04:39.47\00:04:41.11
if you really analyze them.
00:04:41.14\00:04:42.48
In fact I, I
keep hearing a claim,
00:04:42.51\00:04:48.42
may be it's true
that the US Constitution
00:04:48.45\00:04:50.85
is the oldest
constitution in the US today.
00:04:50.89\00:04:53.46
In the world.
00:04:53.49\00:04:54.82
In the world, I'm sorry
in the world today, yeah.
00:04:54.86\00:04:57.53
I don't know if
that's complete true though.
00:04:57.56\00:04:59.43
My understanding is
00:04:59.46\00:05:00.86
that it is the
oldest written constitution.
00:05:00.90\00:05:05.03
So, you know, of course
00:05:05.07\00:05:06.50
the British
Constitution is not written
00:05:06.53\00:05:08.50
and it's been
evolving over the centuries.
00:05:08.54\00:05:10.84
Yes, that was
the one I thought of
00:05:10.87\00:05:12.84
and I was milling through it
00:05:12.87\00:05:14.21
because they don't have
a formal single document.
00:05:14.24\00:05:17.91
Right.
00:05:17.95\00:05:19.28
But its partly oral, partly
different laws and agreements.
00:05:19.31\00:05:23.92
In the minds of the British
00:05:23.95\00:05:25.59
I think their legal
framework is pretty plain.
00:05:25.62\00:05:28.69
Yes, but of course--
00:05:28.72\00:05:30.06
May be doesn't qualify
00:05:30.09\00:05:31.43
as a single
written constitution.
00:05:31.46\00:05:32.79
We just celebrated
the 800th anniversary
00:05:32.83\00:05:34.93
of the Magna Carta
00:05:34.96\00:05:36.53
and that's considered
to be a fundamental part
00:05:36.56\00:05:41.04
of the British Constitution
and the rule of law--
00:05:41.07\00:05:44.91
'Cause King John
rejected it immediately
00:05:44.94\00:05:46.61
and got the pope to
say that it was invalid.
00:05:46.64\00:05:49.68
But they kept coming back to--
00:05:49.71\00:05:51.05
It laid the groundwork here on.
00:05:51.08\00:05:53.42
Now, United States is
not the oldest republic
00:05:53.45\00:05:57.19
in the world.
00:05:57.22\00:05:58.55
San Marino claims that title.
00:05:58.59\00:06:01.86
But I think it's the
oldest written constitution.
00:06:01.89\00:06:04.69
It certainly had a
relatively long existence
00:06:04.73\00:06:09.26
and it's hasn't yet,
as it may prophetically
00:06:09.30\00:06:13.34
there's some
indication that may come a time
00:06:13.37\00:06:15.14
when the US turns
on the constitution,
00:06:15.17\00:06:17.07
but not yet.
00:06:17.11\00:06:19.01
It's held up pretty well.
00:06:19.04\00:06:20.38
Yes, and I,
00:06:20.41\00:06:21.94
I don't see how it would work
00:06:21.98\00:06:24.31
that we would
simply overturn in.
00:06:24.35\00:06:26.75
Obviously
interpretations changed.
00:06:26.78\00:06:29.88
Our interpretation
of the constitution
00:06:29.92\00:06:32.12
over the centuries has evolved.
00:06:32.15\00:06:35.99
No, I've come to the
point, I don't believe
00:06:36.02\00:06:39.33
short of the dissolution
of the republic totally.
00:06:39.36\00:06:41.80
I don't think it's
going to be overturned
00:06:41.83\00:06:43.90
in any formal way.
00:06:43.93\00:06:45.27
But it's always
possible that it.
00:06:45.30\00:06:47.67
you know, it's under glass
and seen as a high historic...
00:06:47.70\00:06:54.08
talisman, but daily
people do something different.
00:06:54.11\00:06:57.15
I think there
could be a divergence
00:06:57.18\00:06:58.78
of how it works.
00:06:58.81\00:07:01.35
But not yet right
and the Supreme Court
00:07:01.38\00:07:03.75
is diligent about that allowing
00:07:03.79\00:07:05.72
for a little living
constitution to leeway.
00:07:05.75\00:07:08.62
I think it's
functioned very well.
00:07:08.66\00:07:10.83
And yet one has to be
concerned now and then.
00:07:10.86\00:07:14.20
If you remember of
course, as everybody does,
00:07:14.23\00:07:16.36
the attacks of 9/11
00:07:16.40\00:07:19.57
and the sort of
reaction that followed
00:07:19.60\00:07:22.24
where Congress
was prepared to...
00:07:22.27\00:07:27.81
pass much more expansive
00:07:27.84\00:07:32.31
security
observation type laws then,
00:07:32.35\00:07:35.35
then they're even
comfortable with now.
00:07:35.38\00:07:37.02
Now some of them are
backing away from it.
00:07:37.05\00:07:38.92
Thankfully. What
was that statement?
00:07:38.95\00:07:40.82
Who was it that said
00:07:40.86\00:07:42.36
for those that
are willing to give up
00:07:42.39\00:07:44.53
essential
liberty for a security?
00:07:44.56\00:07:45.99
They don't deserve them.
00:07:46.03\00:07:47.36
They don't deserve
liberty or security.
00:07:47.40\00:07:49.13
That's right.
00:07:49.16\00:07:51.40
You know, at one point
the Bush administration
00:07:51.43\00:07:53.74
tried to argue in court
00:07:53.77\00:07:55.60
that they had the right
to arrest an American citizen
00:07:55.64\00:08:00.84
and hold him without access
to attorneys and without trial
00:08:00.88\00:08:04.91
indefinitely on a security basis
00:08:04.95\00:08:07.78
and that eventually
they lost that argument
00:08:07.82\00:08:11.85
but they made
that argument in the...
00:08:11.89\00:08:15.62
in the 2004-05-06 time frame,
which was very disturbing.
00:08:15.66\00:08:20.56
It was actually
an executive order
00:08:20.60\00:08:22.30
about this present
administration that's similar.
00:08:22.33\00:08:25.97
So one cannot
discount that it's possible
00:08:26.00\00:08:31.14
the civil
liberties can be restricted
00:08:31.17\00:08:33.41
much more than one would wish.
00:08:33.44\00:08:35.04
And that's what
happened with Rome
00:08:35.08\00:08:36.41
which I don't think
is a very good parallel
00:08:36.44\00:08:38.18
to the United States.
00:08:38.21\00:08:39.55
I believe the best
00:08:39.58\00:08:41.25
historical parallel
to the US is Venice.
00:08:41.28\00:08:44.42
Oh, okay.
00:08:44.45\00:08:45.79
The trading--
00:08:45.82\00:08:47.82
I don't know if
they were ever public,
00:08:47.86\00:08:50.33
but it was really,
00:08:50.36\00:08:51.69
Venice was pretty much
a self-rule city state.
00:08:51.73\00:08:54.40
But looking at Rome you
know, it had the senators
00:08:54.43\00:08:57.40
and senators
rather in the similar--
00:08:57.43\00:08:59.70
apparently similar system
00:08:59.73\00:09:01.27
and it was all of the
cascading threats to Rome
00:09:01.30\00:09:03.87
where they gave it
away and eventually
00:09:03.91\00:09:06.01
passed over
power to the Caesars.
00:09:06.04\00:09:09.64
But some of the same
dynamic is at work here
00:09:09.68\00:09:12.25
and you know we hope and pray
that the liberal constitution
00:09:12.28\00:09:16.45
or responsible
representative role continues.
00:09:16.48\00:09:20.99
And you were part of ensuring
00:09:21.02\00:09:23.56
and that's projection
of that that continues.
00:09:23.59\00:09:26.23
And if a terrorist
attack occurs again
00:09:26.26\00:09:29.50
which at some point may well.
00:09:29.53\00:09:30.87
Certainly, at some point.
00:09:30.90\00:09:34.44
What we also
need to be is vigilant
00:09:34.47\00:09:36.67
that we don't overreact
and give up more liberty
00:09:36.71\00:09:40.74
and more of our freedoms
00:09:40.78\00:09:42.24
due to an attack like
that then we would otherwise.
00:09:42.28\00:09:45.15
Yeah.
00:09:45.18\00:09:46.51
This is a case
where Israel as a country
00:09:46.55\00:09:50.02
has gotten used to the
kind of threat and attacks
00:09:50.05\00:09:54.86
and heightens security
that they have to maintain.
00:09:54.89\00:09:57.73
United States
is not used to that
00:09:57.76\00:10:00.20
and so when
attacks come its shocking
00:10:00.23\00:10:03.63
and then there's
may be a reaction.
00:10:03.67\00:10:06.77
Yeah, we were all
shocked and it felt like
00:10:06.80\00:10:09.07
an existential threat
00:10:09.10\00:10:10.44
even though in
afternoon meetings
00:10:10.47\00:10:11.81
I've tried to remind people
00:10:11.84\00:10:13.44
that the whole German
air force were bombing London
00:10:13.48\00:10:16.18
and the
southeast for weeks on end,
00:10:16.21\00:10:18.41
and there was never any question
00:10:18.45\00:10:20.72
that the England would survive.
00:10:20.75\00:10:22.08
Look what I mean
short of invasion
00:10:22.12\00:10:23.55
but I mean the bombing
wasn't destroying them.
00:10:23.59\00:10:25.92
So we need a little
fortitude both in civil affairs
00:10:25.95\00:10:30.13
and as Jesus said,
00:10:30.16\00:10:31.49
"Though you live a godly life
you will suffer persecution."
00:10:31.53\00:10:33.80
So stick with it. Yeah, okay.
00:10:33.83\00:10:36.93
Again, I've asked
you on another program,
00:10:36.97\00:10:39.67
any takeaway on
this someone that entered
00:10:39.70\00:10:42.30
into service for the country
and what it meant to you?
00:10:42.34\00:10:46.81
Well, just I
think the public service
00:10:46.84\00:10:48.71
is an opportunity and
one where we get the chance
00:10:48.74\00:10:53.72
to really represent our
faith and represent our country
00:10:53.75\00:10:57.95
and to uphold the kind
of human rights, freedoms
00:10:57.99\00:11:02.99
and very much
including religious liberty
00:11:03.02\00:11:05.53
that we find so important.
00:11:05.56\00:11:07.10
When I was much younger,
I remember being inspired
00:11:10.47\00:11:13.44
by the song
"Dare to be a Daniel,
00:11:13.47\00:11:15.37
dare to stand alone."
00:11:15.40\00:11:17.87
That's certainly
was very much the case
00:11:17.91\00:11:19.57
with Daniel as a
young man as he began a life
00:11:19.61\00:11:22.74
of government service
in as far away Babylon.
00:11:22.78\00:11:26.92
But in reality it
was daring to serve
00:11:26.95\00:11:30.02
that was his real test.
00:11:30.05\00:11:31.75
How that man of
god, that prophet,
00:11:31.79\00:11:36.12
that statesman could deal
with successive administrations
00:11:36.16\00:11:40.30
not changes by the ballot
but by the edge of the sword.
00:11:40.33\00:11:44.47
Total sea changes
in the ruling elite
00:11:44.50\00:11:48.17
and yet through it all
he could serve admirably
00:11:48.20\00:11:51.84
and responsibly and very
openly in the name of his God
00:11:51.87\00:11:56.71
as the King Darius
said, "Oh, Daniel I know
00:11:56.75\00:12:00.32
that your God can
save you from the lions."
00:12:00.35\00:12:05.19
That is the
bravery and the witness
00:12:05.22\00:12:08.12
I think of Daniel that we
too can exemplify in our age.
00:12:08.16\00:12:13.46
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:13.50\00:12:17.13