Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Nay
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000299B
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00:05 Welcome back to "The Liberty Insider."
00:07 Before the break with guest John Nay. 00:10 By the way, John Nay, for our viewers that might have 00:14 just picked up with the program, was-- 00:17 before his retirement ambassador to Surinam-- 00:20 Yes. 00:21 And served the US in various diplomatic posts, 00:24 through the years. 00:25 But you'd mention that Toronto 00:27 was one of your more pleasant postings. 00:30 Toronto was wonderful. 00:31 Yeah, and there's a comedian 00:34 from Canada, John Pinette, I think. 00:38 Baby-faced guy, talks a lot about food in his humor. 00:41 But his standard line is, "Nay, nay, I say, nay, nay." 00:45 I think of you. Oh, I see. 00:46 John Nay. 00:52 But we've been talking about the United States 00:54 and its model of religious liberty 00:55 from a constitutional base and I'm sure you kept 00:58 that in mind always as you projected US values 01:02 and when we think about it, this is just a read or write; 01:06 it's a wonderful serendipity, 01:09 this outcome from some of effy beginning. 01:12 But as it was established 01:13 in the constitution it's worked well. 01:16 Well, you know, the constitution 01:18 that we have I think is, 01:20 has been so vital to preserving our freedoms 01:24 and so often when I was talking in Surinm 01:29 and elsewhere, I was also highlighting freedom 01:32 of the press and you don't understand 01:35 the value of freedom of the press 01:37 until you live in a place that doesn't have it. 01:40 And when you see the kind of propaganda newspapers 01:44 that can be put out by a government owned facility 01:48 when, and then there's no other alternative 01:51 you realize the value of freedom of the press 01:53 and of ensuring that journalists are able 01:57 to report freely and similarly, 02:00 freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, 02:04 all of them, freedom of speech. 02:06 But you need to-- 02:07 I mean, it's true you can't rely 02:09 on every newspaper in the US to be right on. 02:12 But when you have freedom of the press in the mix-- 02:14 You're gonna get the truth if you want to. 02:15 But I'm still a little surprised-- 02:17 Either you talk about the press and government information. 02:22 You know, we remember, humorously as a very sad 02:25 and dangerous time. 02:26 But remember Baghdad Bob during the US invasion. 02:29 He was-- I remember-- 02:30 what I remember watching that is, 02:32 he's giving the government line, 02:33 "We're fighting them back and I'll arrest. 02:35 They're not winning Baghdad." 02:37 And in the background you can see the tanks, 02:38 US tanks buzzing up and down. 02:40 Yeah. Occupy. 02:43 That was humorous but it did show to me 02:45 how totally devoid of reality a controlled-- 02:49 a government controlled media can be. 02:51 It can be. 02:53 So it's a privilege that we have to-- 02:54 At least have the right to know and to find out 02:57 and discuss and read correct information. 02:59 And I think religion flourishes much more 03:02 with the freedom of the press. 03:03 You know, they are not, by mistake, 03:05 two halves of the same amendment. 03:07 Of course. 03:08 And I think it was Hillary Clinton 03:10 made a very trenching compent-- 03:13 comment once that religious liberty 03:16 is sort of litmus test of all the civil liberties. 03:20 Well, I think that's a valid comment. 03:22 Or you really can't have true religious liberty 03:24 without full civil liberty. 03:27 And again, you know, going right along with it, 03:29 freedom of the press, both 03:32 and I think what we've seen over the years too 03:35 is when you do have an official state church 03:38 that is funded by the government, 03:43 even if one can choose to be a member of it or not, 03:47 it isn't actually helpful to that church. 03:49 Oh, weakens the church. Weakens it because-- 03:51 It was very plain that it becomes 03:53 very just a passive-- 03:58 Members-- Not much initiative. 03:59 Tend to drop away or it feel like 04:01 they don't have to support it 04:02 because it'll get government support. 04:04 Now as in the Middle Ages, 04:06 where it was not just the state church 04:08 but there was no option then the church can be strong. 04:11 Impressive at least as far as strength. 04:13 Yes, yes and of course then you wind up with, 04:17 very quickly can wind up with terrible persecution-- 04:20 Of any who differ. Even in extremely minor points. 04:25 And my wife and I spent two weeks 04:27 in northern Italy this summer in June. 04:29 One week of it, with a group up in the area 04:32 where the Waldenses work. 04:34 An inspiring example of people 04:37 who sought to believe in their own way 04:42 and then were repeatedly, brutally persecuted 04:47 and in fact, we spent one day climbing up a very steep hill-- 04:52 Torre Pellice, was it? 04:55 Out side of Torre Pellice up to the Castelluzzo, 04:58 where literally hundreds of them were thrown off 05:01 of the off of this precipice. 05:06 So very sad and totally unnecessary 05:11 except that the-- I say unnecessary 05:14 in the sense that they were no threat 05:16 to the governing authorities except that 05:21 the governing authorities sought to ensure 05:24 that there could be no difference in any aspect. 05:28 Well, what was going on then it seems to-- 05:30 well, we know that Rome was telling the Duke of Seville. 05:37 I think it was-- Yes. 05:38 That they need to deal with these decidite 05:40 so there was pressure brought to bear on them. 05:41 Absolutely. 05:43 But I think what was going on then 05:44 which way heading toward and it does trouble me. 05:47 That was the area where national identity 05:49 was equated with religious identity. 05:52 So if you were out of the norm, you're not in the heretic 05:56 but you are threatening the whole natural-- 05:59 social stability and the identity 06:02 and the very loyalty. 06:03 Now we've been able to, especially in the US 06:06 and Australia, we aren't from 06:07 where we have mixed populations, 06:09 we're able to sort of distill out 06:11 what it is to be loyal to the state 06:13 in spite of your other identities. 06:15 That's right. 06:16 Yeah, you don't have to be of the same religion 06:18 or the same ethnic group or whatever-- 06:21 Or even necessarily of the one party. 06:23 Even the multi-party thing is-- 06:25 That's a relatively new phenomenon. 06:28 Relatively new. But-- 06:29 And I'd listen to some of the talk radio 06:32 and that troubles me in the US, some of the radical talk radio, 06:37 they equate their political opponents 06:39 with the terrorists and enemies and that doesn't go well. 06:43 But at least we're free to say that. 06:46 That's another positive. 06:47 But, yes, the sort of extremist claims 06:50 that you hear on the radio 06:52 I think are some times very sad. 06:54 Well, I wrote in an editorial some thing like 06:56 and I said the difference between the rapid-- 07:03 Often right wing radio talk shows language 07:06 and the radio incitements to violence 07:12 that resulted in the genocide in Rwanda 07:15 is differences of degree, not of kind. 07:20 Sadly, I think you're right 07:22 and what puzzles me at times is, 07:26 the kind of harsh rhetoric, racist rhetoric 07:29 that I've heard on some on a couple 07:32 of radio programs particularly, anti-immigrant rhetoric, 07:39 it doesn't seem at all Christian, 07:42 not that they are necessarily claiming to be-- 07:44 But its not charitable, is it? 07:46 Not at all. 07:47 What surprises me is when Christians 07:51 begin to listen to these and continue to listen 07:54 and begin to echo some of these few points, 07:56 to me it seems like there's a contradiction in terms. 07:59 Yeah, you're absolutely right. 08:02 Now which party would Jesus speak at if he came? 08:06 I think no party. 08:08 I think no party because you know, 08:11 he had a different mission 08:13 and would not have linked himself, 08:17 I mean, he didn't link himself to the Romans 08:19 or the Pharisees or the Sadducees. 08:23 He had a mission, but I think he would've been 08:27 a part of a party that emphasized 08:30 outreach to people and treating people right. 08:35 I'm not sure if it's the Bible or Ellen White's illumination's 08:38 on that speaking to Seventh-Day Adventist 08:40 but she said that he went around 08:41 someone wishing other people's good 08:44 and I think that should characterize the Christian 08:46 and so even though 08:49 different Christians to have political viewpoints 08:52 I think they should be charitable 08:53 towards other people and it does trouble me 08:55 and in a nominally Christian society 08:57 and I know US is not as Christian as people imagine. 09:01 Its very secular society 09:03 but still it claims a Christian identity 09:07 that this talk about the immigrants 09:09 and so on can veer into very hateful harsh-- 09:13 Yes. 09:15 Language that you know, it might affect policy 09:17 but I used to work on construction 09:19 when I was in college, 09:20 actually all through high school at college 09:22 and I know many other people 09:23 that work on those jobs act very reflexly 09:27 and there can be a sort of a debate 09:29 with some extreme statements that the average person 09:33 just translates into how they work 09:35 but those people, they're like the stick of flag 09:38 in the back at the pickup. 09:40 Go up and do something. 09:42 Well, and the thing that we need to keep in mind 09:44 and of course the Bible speaks about 09:46 treating the stranger within your gates kindly 09:50 but the vast majority of immigrants 09:52 and certainly you, yourself are an immigrant 09:57 to the United States, 09:59 I'm descended from immigrants mostly 10:02 and the vast majority including 10:06 those who don't have papers to be authorized to be here 10:09 or hard workers who care about their families, 10:13 who have all of the same aspirations 10:17 for their families that we do 10:20 and I think if we keep that kind of thing in mind-- 10:21 Yeah, you know, and I don't think 10:23 you are certainly, 10:24 I'm not suggesting any change in policy. 10:27 What's illegal is illegal 10:28 and there's got to be ways to deal with that 10:30 and the voters and leaders can commit that. 10:33 But the rhetoric at the way 10:34 other human beings are characterized 10:38 I think is very unfortunate, very unfortunate. 10:40 But the United States I-- not just think, 10:43 I know, is a beacon still through its constitution 10:47 and its history and you were privileged 10:49 to be a part of that and project that 10:53 and you mentioned Surinam, were there any other places 10:55 just a little micro-comment of the places 10:58 where you were able to project that? 11:02 Well, as I was serving in Canada 11:07 it was a chance to project US values 11:11 and how we saw things-- so many things the same way, 11:15 but also sometimes saw them differently. 11:17 In India, in South Africa, again it was an opportunity 11:20 to work with many different people 11:22 and find common ground, 11:25 something that I very much enjoyed. 11:31 Chicken and the egg discussions 11:34 can apply to many topics 11:36 but I don't think any more appropriately than discussions 11:39 of the United States' constitution. 11:42 Studying the history of settlement 11:45 and then a final establishment of the United States republic, 11:49 I'm always wondering whether it was formed 11:52 by the agreed upon constitution 11:55 or the agreed upon constitution 11:57 came out of, what was already formed 12:00 in the national consciousness of the citizenry. 12:05 Either way, a constitution must be 12:08 more than just paper under glass 12:12 in a hushed atmosphere of the museum. 12:15 It has to exemplify the shared aspirations 12:19 and agreement of the citizenry. 12:24 In our day, the United States 12:26 has adequately stood for freedom of religion. 12:29 It's a high ideal 12:31 and it should be always kept before 12:33 not only its own citizenry but the world. 12:37 There is no higher value than that of religious freedom. 12:41 There is no greater civil test of true freedom 12:45 than religious liberty. 12:48 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-09-17