Welcome back to
"The Liberty Insider."
00:00:05.47\00:00:07.14
Before the break
with guest John Nay.
00:00:07.17\00:00:09.97
By the way, John Nay, for
our viewers that might have
00:00:10.01\00:00:14.74
just picked up
with the program, was--
00:00:14.78\00:00:17.85
before his retirement
ambassador to Surinam--
00:00:17.88\00:00:20.55
Yes.
00:00:20.58\00:00:21.92
And served the US in
various diplomatic posts,
00:00:21.95\00:00:24.52
through the years.
00:00:24.55\00:00:25.89
But you'd mention that Toronto
00:00:25.92\00:00:27.86
was one of your
more pleasant postings.
00:00:27.89\00:00:30.53
Toronto was wonderful.
00:00:30.56\00:00:31.89
Yeah, and there's a comedian
00:00:31.93\00:00:34.46
from Canada,
John Pinette, I think.
00:00:34.50\00:00:38.90
Baby-faced guy, talks a
lot about food in his humor.
00:00:38.93\00:00:41.87
But his standard line is,
"Nay, nay, I say, nay, nay."
00:00:41.90\00:00:45.04
I think of you. Oh, I see.
00:00:45.07\00:00:46.47
John Nay.
00:00:46.51\00:00:52.21
But we've been talking
about the United States
00:00:52.25\00:00:54.42
and its model of
religious liberty
00:00:54.45\00:00:55.95
from a constitutional
base and I'm sure you kept
00:00:55.98\00:00:58.79
that in mind always as
you projected US values
00:00:58.82\00:01:02.89
and when we think about it,
this is just a read or write;
00:01:02.92\00:01:06.76
it's a wonderful serendipity,
00:01:06.80\00:01:09.00
this outcome from
some of effy beginning.
00:01:09.03\00:01:12.20
But as it was established
00:01:12.23\00:01:13.57
in the
constitution it's worked well.
00:01:13.60\00:01:16.30
Well, you know, the constitution
00:01:16.34\00:01:18.17
that we have I think is,
00:01:18.21\00:01:20.54
has been so vital to
preserving our freedoms
00:01:20.58\00:01:24.78
and so often when I
was talking in Surinm
00:01:24.81\00:01:29.42
and elsewhere, I was
also highlighting freedom
00:01:29.45\00:01:32.62
of the press and
you don't understand
00:01:32.65\00:01:35.59
the value of
freedom of the press
00:01:35.62\00:01:37.86
until you live in a
place that doesn't have it.
00:01:37.89\00:01:40.60
And when you see the
kind of propaganda newspapers
00:01:40.63\00:01:44.93
that can be put out by a
government owned facility
00:01:44.97\00:01:48.00
when, and then
there's no other alternative
00:01:48.04\00:01:51.61
you realize the value
of freedom of the press
00:01:51.64\00:01:53.68
and of ensuring
that journalists are able
00:01:53.71\00:01:57.35
to report freely and similarly,
00:01:57.38\00:02:00.85
freedom of
assembly, freedom of religion,
00:02:00.88\00:02:04.82
all of them, freedom of speech.
00:02:04.85\00:02:06.42
But you need to--
00:02:06.45\00:02:07.89
I mean, it's true you can't rely
00:02:07.92\00:02:09.66
on every newspaper in
the US to be right on.
00:02:09.69\00:02:12.13
But when you have freedom
of the press in the mix--
00:02:12.16\00:02:14.53
You're gonna get the
truth if you want to.
00:02:14.56\00:02:15.90
But I'm still a
little surprised--
00:02:15.93\00:02:17.27
Either you talk about the press
and government information.
00:02:17.30\00:02:22.34
You know, we remember,
humorously as a very sad
00:02:22.37\00:02:25.01
and dangerous time.
00:02:25.04\00:02:26.37
But remember Baghdad
Bob during the US invasion.
00:02:26.41\00:02:29.44
He was-- I remember--
00:02:29.48\00:02:30.81
what I remember
watching that is,
00:02:30.85\00:02:32.18
he's giving the government line,
00:02:32.21\00:02:33.55
"We're fighting them
back and I'll arrest.
00:02:33.58\00:02:35.65
They're not winning Baghdad."
00:02:35.68\00:02:37.02
And in the background
you can see the tanks,
00:02:37.05\00:02:38.72
US tanks buzzing up and down.
00:02:38.75\00:02:40.39
Yeah. Occupy.
00:02:40.42\00:02:43.02
That was humorous
but it did show to me
00:02:43.06\00:02:45.76
how totally devoid of
reality a controlled--
00:02:45.79\00:02:49.53
a government
controlled media can be.
00:02:49.56\00:02:51.90
It can be.
00:02:51.93\00:02:53.27
So it's a
privilege that we have to--
00:02:53.30\00:02:54.94
At least have the
right to know and to find out
00:02:54.97\00:02:57.27
and discuss and
read correct information.
00:02:57.31\00:02:59.74
And I think
religion flourishes much more
00:02:59.77\00:03:01.98
with the freedom of the press.
00:03:02.01\00:03:03.35
You know, they
are not, by mistake,
00:03:03.38\00:03:05.55
two halves of
the same amendment.
00:03:05.58\00:03:07.08
Of course.
00:03:07.12\00:03:08.78
And I think it
was Hillary Clinton
00:03:08.82\00:03:10.15
made a very trenching compent--
00:03:10.19\00:03:13.92
comment once
that religious liberty
00:03:13.96\00:03:16.73
is sort of litmus test
of all the civil liberties.
00:03:16.76\00:03:20.26
Well, I think
that's a valid comment.
00:03:20.30\00:03:22.10
Or you really can't
have true religious liberty
00:03:22.13\00:03:24.93
without full civil liberty.
00:03:24.97\00:03:27.40
And again, you know,
going right along with it,
00:03:27.44\00:03:29.90
freedom of the press, both
00:03:29.94\00:03:32.67
and I think what we've
seen over the years too
00:03:32.71\00:03:35.71
is when you do have
an official state church
00:03:35.74\00:03:38.91
that is funded
by the government,
00:03:38.95\00:03:43.59
even if one can choose
to be a member of it or not,
00:03:43.62\00:03:46.99
it isn't actually
helpful to that church.
00:03:47.02\00:03:49.52
Oh, weakens the
church. Weakens it because--
00:03:49.56\00:03:51.46
It was very
plain that it becomes
00:03:51.49\00:03:53.86
very just a passive--
00:03:53.90\00:03:58.23
Members-- Not much initiative.
00:03:58.27\00:03:59.60
Tend to drop
away or it feel like
00:03:59.63\00:04:01.47
they don't have to support it
00:04:01.50\00:04:02.84
because it'll get
government support.
00:04:02.87\00:04:04.21
Now as in the Middle Ages,
00:04:04.24\00:04:06.24
where it was not
just the state church
00:04:06.27\00:04:07.98
but there was no option
then the church can be strong.
00:04:08.01\00:04:11.21
Impressive at
least as far as strength.
00:04:11.25\00:04:13.42
Yes, yes and of
course then you wind up with,
00:04:13.45\00:04:17.02
very quickly can wind up
with terrible persecution--
00:04:17.05\00:04:20.62
Of any who differ. Even
in extremely minor points.
00:04:20.66\00:04:25.29
And my wife and
I spent two weeks
00:04:25.33\00:04:27.26
in northern Italy
this summer in June.
00:04:27.30\00:04:29.73
One week of it, with
a group up in the area
00:04:29.76\00:04:32.53
where the Waldenses work.
00:04:32.57\00:04:34.94
An inspiring example of people
00:04:34.97\00:04:37.67
who sought to
believe in their own way
00:04:37.71\00:04:42.41
and then were
repeatedly, brutally persecuted
00:04:42.44\00:04:47.35
and in fact, we spent one day
climbing up a very steep hill--
00:04:47.38\00:04:52.82
Torre Pellice, was it?
00:04:52.85\00:04:55.06
Out side of Torre
Pellice up to the Castelluzzo,
00:04:55.09\00:04:58.43
where literally
hundreds of them were thrown off
00:04:58.46\00:05:01.36
of the off of this precipice.
00:05:01.40\00:05:06.13
So very sad and
totally unnecessary
00:05:06.17\00:05:11.01
except that
the-- I say unnecessary
00:05:11.04\00:05:14.14
in the sense that
they were no threat
00:05:14.18\00:05:16.34
to the governing
authorities except that
00:05:16.38\00:05:21.55
the governing
authorities sought to ensure
00:05:21.58\00:05:24.29
that there could be no
difference in any aspect.
00:05:24.32\00:05:28.79
Well, what was going
on then it seems to--
00:05:28.82\00:05:30.96
well, we know that Rome was
telling the Duke of Seville.
00:05:30.99\00:05:37.47
I think it was-- Yes.
00:05:37.50\00:05:38.93
That they need to
deal with these decidite
00:05:38.97\00:05:40.34
so there was pressure
brought to bear on them.
00:05:40.37\00:05:41.87
Absolutely.
00:05:41.90\00:05:43.24
But I think what
was going on then
00:05:43.27\00:05:44.61
which way heading
toward and it does trouble me.
00:05:44.64\00:05:47.51
That was the area
where national identity
00:05:47.54\00:05:49.88
was equated with
religious identity.
00:05:49.91\00:05:52.61
So if you were out of the
norm, you're not in the heretic
00:05:52.65\00:05:56.08
but you are
threatening the whole natural--
00:05:56.12\00:05:59.22
social
stability and the identity
00:05:59.25\00:06:02.32
and the very loyalty.
00:06:02.36\00:06:03.69
Now we've been able
to, especially in the US
00:06:03.73\00:06:06.29
and Australia, we aren't from
00:06:06.33\00:06:07.66
where we have mixed populations,
00:06:07.70\00:06:09.83
we're able to
sort of distill out
00:06:09.86\00:06:11.70
what it is to be
loyal to the state
00:06:11.73\00:06:13.60
in spite of your
other identities.
00:06:13.64\00:06:15.40
That's right.
00:06:15.44\00:06:16.77
Yeah, you don't have
to be of the same religion
00:06:16.81\00:06:18.71
or the same ethnic
group or whatever--
00:06:18.74\00:06:21.08
Or even
necessarily of the one party.
00:06:21.11\00:06:23.58
Even the multi-party thing is--
00:06:23.61\00:06:25.48
That's a
relatively new phenomenon.
00:06:25.51\00:06:28.18
Relatively new. But--
00:06:28.22\00:06:29.62
And I'd listen to
some of the talk radio
00:06:29.65\00:06:32.72
and that troubles me in the US,
some of the radical talk radio,
00:06:32.75\00:06:37.59
they equate their
political opponents
00:06:37.63\00:06:39.19
with the terrorists and enemies
and that doesn't go well.
00:06:39.23\00:06:43.37
But at least
we're free to say that.
00:06:43.40\00:06:46.17
That's another positive.
00:06:46.20\00:06:47.77
But, yes, the sort
of extremist claims
00:06:47.80\00:06:50.61
that you hear on the radio
00:06:50.64\00:06:51.97
I think are some times very sad.
00:06:52.01\00:06:54.24
Well, I wrote in an
editorial some thing like
00:06:54.28\00:06:56.44
and I said the
difference between the rapid--
00:06:56.48\00:07:02.98
Often right wing
radio talk shows language
00:07:03.02\00:07:06.69
and the radio
incitements to violence
00:07:06.72\00:07:12.66
that resulted in
the genocide in Rwanda
00:07:12.69\00:07:15.90
is differences of
degree, not of kind.
00:07:15.93\00:07:20.90
Sadly, I think you're right
00:07:20.94\00:07:22.57
and what puzzles me at times is,
00:07:22.60\00:07:26.11
the kind of harsh
rhetoric, racist rhetoric
00:07:26.14\00:07:29.41
that I've heard
on some on a couple
00:07:29.44\00:07:32.38
of radio programs particularly,
anti-immigrant rhetoric,
00:07:32.41\00:07:39.55
it doesn't seem
at all Christian,
00:07:39.59\00:07:42.96
not that they are
necessarily claiming to be--
00:07:42.99\00:07:44.79
But its not charitable, is it?
00:07:44.83\00:07:46.33
Not at all.
00:07:46.36\00:07:47.70
What surprises me
is when Christians
00:07:47.73\00:07:51.43
begin to listen to
these and continue to listen
00:07:51.47\00:07:54.04
and begin to echo
some of these few points,
00:07:54.07\00:07:56.20
to me it seems like there's
a contradiction in terms.
00:07:56.24\00:07:59.91
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
00:07:59.94\00:08:02.74
Now which party would
Jesus speak at if he came?
00:08:02.78\00:08:06.78
I think no party.
00:08:06.82\00:08:08.15
I think no party
because you know,
00:08:08.18\00:08:11.32
he had a different mission
00:08:11.35\00:08:13.29
and would not
have linked himself,
00:08:13.32\00:08:17.89
I mean, he didn't
link himself to the Romans
00:08:17.93\00:08:19.69
or the Pharisees
or the Sadducees.
00:08:19.73\00:08:23.57
He had a mission, but
I think he would've been
00:08:23.60\00:08:27.54
a part of a
party that emphasized
00:08:27.57\00:08:30.81
outreach to people
and treating people right.
00:08:30.84\00:08:35.48
I'm not sure if it's the Bible
or Ellen White's illumination's
00:08:35.51\00:08:38.58
on that speaking to
Seventh-Day Adventist
00:08:38.61\00:08:40.15
but she said that he went around
00:08:40.18\00:08:41.88
someone wishing
other people's good
00:08:41.92\00:08:44.92
and I think that should
characterize the Christian
00:08:44.95\00:08:46.96
and so even though
00:08:46.99\00:08:49.29
different Christians to
have political viewpoints
00:08:49.32\00:08:52.23
I think they
should be charitable
00:08:52.26\00:08:53.80
towards other people
and it does trouble me
00:08:53.83\00:08:55.43
and in a
nominally Christian society
00:08:55.46\00:08:57.30
and I know US is not as
Christian as people imagine.
00:08:57.33\00:09:01.60
Its very secular society
00:09:01.64\00:09:03.81
but still it claims
a Christian identity
00:09:03.84\00:09:06.98
that this talk
about the immigrants
00:09:07.01\00:09:09.21
and so on can veer
into very hateful harsh--
00:09:09.24\00:09:13.65
Yes.
00:09:13.68\00:09:15.02
Language that you
know, it might affect policy
00:09:15.05\00:09:17.49
but I used to
work on construction
00:09:17.52\00:09:19.25
when I was in college,
00:09:19.29\00:09:20.92
actually all through
high school at college
00:09:20.96\00:09:22.39
and I know many other people
00:09:22.42\00:09:23.76
that work on those
jobs act very reflexly
00:09:23.79\00:09:27.23
and there can be
a sort of a debate
00:09:27.26\00:09:29.86
with some extreme statements
that the average person
00:09:29.90\00:09:33.54
just translates
into how they work
00:09:33.57\00:09:35.54
but those people,
they're like the stick of flag
00:09:35.57\00:09:38.17
in the back at the pickup.
00:09:38.21\00:09:40.18
Go up and do something.
00:09:40.21\00:09:42.14
Well, and the thing
that we need to keep in mind
00:09:42.18\00:09:44.81
and of course the
Bible speaks about
00:09:44.85\00:09:46.28
treating the stranger
within your gates kindly
00:09:46.31\00:09:50.22
but the vast
majority of immigrants
00:09:50.25\00:09:52.69
and certainly you,
yourself are an immigrant
00:09:52.72\00:09:57.76
to the United States,
00:09:57.79\00:09:59.79
I'm descended
from immigrants mostly
00:09:59.83\00:10:02.73
and the vast majority including
00:10:02.76\00:10:06.23
those who don't have papers
to be authorized to be here
00:10:06.27\00:10:09.87
or hard workers who
care about their families,
00:10:09.90\00:10:13.17
who have all of
the same aspirations
00:10:13.21\00:10:17.28
for their families that we do
00:10:17.31\00:10:20.02
and I think if we keep
that kind of thing in mind--
00:10:20.05\00:10:21.92
Yeah, you know,
and I don't think
00:10:21.95\00:10:23.28
you are certainly,
00:10:23.32\00:10:24.65
I'm not suggesting
any change in policy.
00:10:24.69\00:10:27.19
What's illegal is illegal
00:10:27.22\00:10:28.56
and there's got to be
ways to deal with that
00:10:28.59\00:10:30.13
and the voters and
leaders can commit that.
00:10:30.16\00:10:33.03
But the rhetoric at the way
00:10:33.06\00:10:34.86
other human
beings are characterized
00:10:34.90\00:10:38.13
I think is very
unfortunate, very unfortunate.
00:10:38.17\00:10:40.77
But the United
States I-- not just think,
00:10:40.80\00:10:43.91
I know, is a beacon
still through its constitution
00:10:43.94\00:10:47.41
and its history
and you were privileged
00:10:47.44\00:10:49.54
to be a part of
that and project that
00:10:49.58\00:10:53.62
and you mentioned Surinam,
were there any other places
00:10:53.65\00:10:55.65
just a little
micro-comment of the places
00:10:55.68\00:10:58.69
where you were
able to project that?
00:10:58.72\00:11:02.19
Well, as I was serving in Canada
00:11:02.22\00:11:07.40
it was a chance
to project US values
00:11:07.43\00:11:11.27
and how we saw things--
so many things the same way,
00:11:11.30\00:11:15.20
but also sometimes
saw them differently.
00:11:15.24\00:11:17.34
In India, in South Africa,
again it was an opportunity
00:11:17.37\00:11:20.91
to work with
many different people
00:11:20.94\00:11:22.74
and find common ground,
00:11:22.78\00:11:25.65
something that I
very much enjoyed.
00:11:25.68\00:11:31.75
Chicken and the egg discussions
00:11:31.79\00:11:34.59
can apply to many topics
00:11:34.62\00:11:36.06
but I don't think any more
appropriately than discussions
00:11:36.09\00:11:39.56
of the United
States' constitution.
00:11:39.59\00:11:42.16
Studying the
history of settlement
00:11:42.20\00:11:45.33
and then a final establishment
of the United States republic,
00:11:45.37\00:11:49.47
I'm always wondering
whether it was formed
00:11:49.50\00:11:52.74
by the agreed upon constitution
00:11:52.77\00:11:55.94
or the agreed upon constitution
00:11:55.98\00:11:57.78
came out of, what
was already formed
00:11:57.81\00:12:00.58
in the national
consciousness of the citizenry.
00:12:00.62\00:12:05.25
Either way, a
constitution must be
00:12:05.29\00:12:08.76
more than just paper under glass
00:12:08.79\00:12:12.73
in a hushed
atmosphere of the museum.
00:12:12.76\00:12:15.73
It has to exemplify
the shared aspirations
00:12:15.76\00:12:19.73
and agreement of the citizenry.
00:12:19.77\00:12:24.87
In our day, the United States
00:12:24.91\00:12:26.47
has adequately stood
for freedom of religion.
00:12:26.51\00:12:29.44
It's a high ideal
00:12:29.48\00:12:31.15
and it should be
always kept before
00:12:31.18\00:12:33.92
not only its own
citizenry but the world.
00:12:33.95\00:12:37.25
There is no higher value
than that of religious freedom.
00:12:37.29\00:12:41.46
There is no greater
civil test of true freedom
00:12:41.49\00:12:45.63
than religious liberty.
00:12:45.66\00:12:48.83
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:48.86\00:12:53.10