Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Nay
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000299A
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00:22 Welcome to 'The Liberty Insider.'
00:23 This is a program that's bringing you analysis, 00:27 news, views and information 00:30 generally about religious liberty, 00:32 the most important liberty we have in the United States 00:36 where it's protected by the US Constitution 00:38 with the principle of the separation 00:40 of church and state and around the world. 00:42 My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:44 I'm the editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:46 And my guest is Ambassador John Nay, 00:49 retired from those duties 00:52 but the last assignment you have was ambassador of Suriname. 00:56 Ambassador to Suriname. To Suriname. 01:00 You're going to really educate me by the time we finish. 01:02 It was wrong way of saying. 01:04 I gave a little appraise of the U.S. principle 01:08 of religious liberty for a reason 01:09 because I want to discuss that with you. 01:13 I know you're at Andrews University 01:15 or retired in that area 01:16 and you've been teaching a few classes 01:18 on American government 01:20 and I imagined Civics and History and so on. 01:24 How would you start off by introducing 01:26 the American concept of religious liberty? 01:29 Religious liberty is of course is universal 01:32 and biblically based I think. 01:34 But in the US, we have a unique take on it. 01:38 Well, and of course that has developed overtime. 01:41 I have a deep longstanding interest in history 01:44 and if you go back 01:45 to the early days in the United States 01:48 and just even right up to Civil War days, 01:52 post Civil War and all of the rest, 01:55 it continues to evolve. 01:57 And I very much appreciate the religious liberty 02:02 that we have and that concept. 02:04 I think it's something that we bring as a gift to the world 02:10 and you know, but we continue to feel our way 02:15 as we work out other issues. 02:19 So how religious liberty bumps up 02:23 against some of the other civil issues, 02:26 it becomes an important issue-- 02:27 Well, particularly now. 02:29 We need to have a program on it but the new found Gay Rights, 02:33 that's already in some conflict with the religious liberty 02:36 and it's not quite clear how that's going to work out. 02:39 So this is a recent challenge. 02:41 Well, and if one goes back to other civil rights issues, 02:46 you know, there were those 02:47 who tried to make the case 50 years ago 02:50 still that interracial marriage was somehow 02:55 not right biblically and you know-- 02:59 The slavery itself was justified on a biblical base. 03:03 You're right. Tried to justify that. 03:05 And-- but in any case the bottom line is that it's-- 03:09 I think it's very important that Christians treat others kindly 03:14 as Christ would treat them. 03:16 And at the same time, 03:19 sincerely held religious beliefs need to be respected. 03:23 And at times that bumps into each other 03:27 and one has to go forward in a sensitive ways as possible. 03:33 Let's discuss the big issue 03:35 and in religious liberty we get some blowback from this, 03:39 but the average person I don't think 03:41 has much thought about it or heard any explanation. 03:44 The United States clearly, in the Constitution 03:47 has a very workable framework for religious liberty, 03:50 guaranteeing-- 03:52 Well, the first amendment, 03:53 government's out of the religion business-- 03:55 Congress bill or law. 03:57 Another law establishing religion 03:59 and it's not to prevent the free exercise, 04:02 sort of hands off in the facilitating arrangement 04:05 because that's argued a lot. 04:08 But in my view, the really big question 04:11 and the answer lies in history, 04:13 in the colonies established by England 04:18 because there was input from friends 04:20 and the Portuguese and others, 04:25 but still these were largely English colonies, 04:29 they were not so great on religious liberty. 04:31 True. Very bad. 04:33 Hanging, Quakers at one stage. 04:36 You know, why would anyone pick up Quakers, 04:38 they were sort of-- 04:40 Although I think they were little more aggressive back then 04:42 but still they were not violence or greatly, 04:44 you would not think harmful but Quakers were persecuted, 04:47 Catholics, you know, they were Satan's agents 04:52 according to most of the Protestants in the US. 04:55 So very difficult pre-history before the United States 04:59 and yet as the US separated from England with violence, 05:04 civil war and then formed its same constitution, 05:07 out of that emerged this very enlightened view. 05:10 Where-- What's your view of...? Where did the shift take place? 05:13 They were not clearly sociologically-- 05:17 You wouldn't expect out of what was happening 05:19 already in those colonies, this would emerge. 05:21 Well, I think it was, it was developing 05:24 and you look at Roger Williams in Rhode Island and that-- 05:28 Who was expelled from-- 05:30 He was expelled from Massachusetts 05:32 and then went down and founded Rhode Island. 05:36 You look at the fact that you had a Jewish synagogue 05:39 in Rhode Island, that dated back to that era. 05:44 Maryland was founded as a Catholic colony. 05:47 And, so as you look at these, 05:50 I think there was, throughout this time 05:52 a growing sense that we want to have religious toleration. 06:00 Now, when they came up with the First Amendment 06:03 of course it only applied to Congress 06:04 and it didn't apply to the States. 06:06 Giving the answer that I think is the only real way to see it. 06:11 You still had individual states 06:14 right up to as late I believe as 1840, 06:17 having a state, giving support 06:20 to a particular church after the civil war. 06:25 And, but they gradually moved away from that. 06:27 And then after the civil war with the 14th Amendment, 06:31 and equal protection of the laws to everyone in every state, 06:35 that has made it applicable at state level. 06:40 Yeah. 06:41 And so what you're saying is true. 06:43 People don't think much about it. 06:46 These colonies were not well prepared for it. 06:49 But I think basically 06:50 because there was a diversity in the colonies, 06:53 they couldn't afford to get into it. 06:54 So it was off the table, protected in the constitution 06:58 and then they were in a growing experience that was-- 07:02 from other reasons not good but the 14 amendment, 07:05 I think when in confirming now that 07:07 this is the requirement everywhere. 07:09 Yes. 07:10 The fix was in and we become used to that, 07:13 but it didn't happen naturally 07:15 and along the way there was some crazy things. 07:18 We've even had an article on Liberty 07:20 on the extermination order against the Mormons. 07:22 I mean that-- Yes. 07:23 We think that sort of stuff only happened in Europe 07:26 but we're dangerously close 07:29 to the same sort of religious bloodletting. 07:31 Yes, the persecution of the Mormons 07:33 was certainly one clear example. 07:36 But I think there was a natural evolution and the-- 07:40 those who wrote the Constitution 07:41 and the Bill of Rights were writing it in a way-- 07:46 having been part of the enlightenment, 07:49 being ones who were reading the philosophers in Europe 07:53 and it had a very positive influence. 07:55 They were-- 07:57 Well, we're greatly indebted to them. 07:58 They thought this through, they were of good intention, 08:02 well educated by and large, 08:05 not necessary to prove that they were religious saints. 08:08 No. 08:10 They came from different aspects, 08:11 but I think they had a common commitment 08:13 to protecting religion in the United States 08:16 and they've been vindicated, there's no question. 08:18 And there's a representative for the U.S. government, 08:20 you've got a right. 08:22 We're not perfect in every regard 08:24 but it's worked out well here 08:25 and I think we can encourage other countries 08:28 and other places to move that direction, 08:32 maybe not on the same constitutional basis. 08:36 Well, I'll use Suriname as an example, 08:38 they absolutely have freedom of religion there 08:42 and people can convert 08:46 from one religion to another and do so. 08:50 The example that in Suriname, they like to hold up 08:55 is the fact that there is also a very pretty, 09:00 very impressive Jewish synagogue 09:01 right next door to a very impressive mosque 09:05 and that the two communities get along 09:08 and share a parking lot and so on. 09:10 It appears in photographs there of the city. 09:15 The Hindu community and the Christian community-- 09:19 Now, they don't necessarily interact religiously 09:22 but they get along and there are-- 09:24 there is movement back and forth. 09:27 But I do wish-- 09:29 I mean, that's good and it is what it is, 09:31 but you just reminded me, 09:32 I do wish there was more dialogue 09:35 between the ministers or the representatives 09:38 of different faiths because I can see 09:40 even in dealing with the religious liberty 09:42 that there are misunderstandings. 09:44 Absolutely, there are misunderstandings. 09:45 Just factual misunderstandings, 09:46 not misunderstanding the intention of another group. 09:49 But I remember meeting with fairly high government official 09:53 that we've had dealings with in our church for years, 09:56 but he and I had a long took and he said, 09:59 now would you consider yourself Protestants? 10:01 A Seventh-day-- I mean that's a-- 10:04 I mean, he gave the question honestly 10:05 but that told me he had very little 10:08 factual information about who we were. 10:11 And that misunderstanding writ large 10:14 if he was in a public policy area 10:17 could be catastrophic for our church. 10:20 Well, and that's an educational issue 10:23 then perhaps that-- 10:24 And I think, but I think on the community level 10:27 if the imams and the pastor and the reverend, 10:32 if they were-- and it can happen 10:34 through the ministers fraternity a little. 10:36 But I know some Seventh-day Adventist ministers 10:39 are little lacks about meeting regularly with their fellows 10:41 and that sort of communication is very good I think. 10:44 I think it's very useful and I did see it happening 10:48 between many community leaders in Suriname and church leaders, 10:52 I would see it in the Greater Toronto area 10:55 where again, there's a lot of interchange. 10:58 But you're absolutely right, there have been times-- 11:02 We spent four years in Calgary 11:04 and there was one Adventist pastor 11:08 who was that I remember well, 11:11 he was very active in reaching out 11:13 and working with ministers of other communities 11:17 and other churches. 11:19 But he and I, as we spoke, 11:21 he told me that at times he has to remind his-- 11:25 he has had to remind his fellow Adventist ministers 11:27 of the benefits of speaking with other communities 11:32 and because there have been those who thought that 11:37 it wasn't useful to have that kind of dialogue, 11:40 I absolutely think it is. 11:42 Well, you know, the US government, 11:44 like John Kerry at the moment, 11:46 he spend a lot amount of time talking to the Iranians 11:49 and it's resulted in an agreement of sorts. 11:52 There are some that don't like it, 11:54 but I think it's been a positive move. 11:57 And yet on the church level we often don't want to talk. 12:01 I've had some interesting 12:02 personal discussions recently with the Dravidians 12:06 who have nothing to do with Adventism now 12:09 but their origins are not so dissimilar, 12:12 many of them were Adventists. 12:13 They found there was 12:14 an Adventist literature evangelist 12:16 who had huge doctrinal differences 12:18 and went his own way, almost a lifetime ago. 12:22 But I think it's good to talk to them 12:23 even if you're not going to reconcile, 12:25 you know, where they're coming from. 12:26 The reform Adventists, 12:31 or a group of about 80,000 members in the world, 12:34 we don't have any dialogue with them that I know of 12:36 and I sat down one day with one of their leaders 12:40 and I was quite surprised at the common cause we have, 12:43 and the lack of a real controversy. 12:48 I think these can only be to the benefit of all people 12:52 and to Christian harmony or religious harmony. 12:55 I can see we passed our break time. 12:58 We need to take a break. Go, get a drink. 13:01 Do whatever you do between times and come back 13:04 and join us in this continuing conversation 13:06 about the basis of religious liberty in the United States 13:10 and how that might be carried forward in other countries. 13:14 Stay with us. |
Revised 2015-09-10