Welcome to 'The
Liberty Insider.'
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This is a program
that's bringing you analysis,
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news, views and information
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generally about
religious liberty,
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the most important liberty
we have in the United States
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where it's protected
by the US Constitution
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with the
principle of the separation
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of church and state
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
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I'm the editor
of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest is
Ambassador John Nay,
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retired from those duties
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but the last assignment you
have was ambassador of Suriname.
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Ambassador to
Suriname. To Suriname.
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You're going to really educate
me by the time we finish.
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It was wrong way of saying.
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I gave a little
appraise of the U.S. principle
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of religious
liberty for a reason
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because I want to
discuss that with you.
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I know you're at
Andrews University
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or retired in that area
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and you've been
teaching a few classes
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on American government
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and I imagined Civics
and History and so on.
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How would you
start off by introducing
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the American concept
of religious liberty?
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Religious liberty is
of course is universal
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and biblically based I think.
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But in the US, we
have a unique take on it.
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Well, and of course
that has developed overtime.
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I have a deep
longstanding interest in history
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and if you go back
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to the early days
in the United States
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and just even right
up to Civil War days,
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post Civil War
and all of the rest,
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it continues to evolve.
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And I very much
appreciate the religious liberty
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that we have and that concept.
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I think it's something that
we bring as a gift to the world
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and you know, but we
continue to feel our way
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as we work out other issues.
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So how
religious liberty bumps up
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against some of
the other civil issues,
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it becomes an important issue--
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Well, particularly now.
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We need to have a program on
it but the new found Gay Rights,
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that's already in some conflict
with the religious liberty
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and it's not quite clear
how that's going to work out.
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So this is a recent challenge.
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Well, and if one goes back
to other civil rights issues,
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you know, there were those
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who tried to make
the case 50 years ago
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still that
interracial marriage was somehow
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not right
biblically and you know--
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The slavery itself was
justified on a biblical base.
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You're right.
Tried to justify that.
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And-- but in any case the
bottom line is that it's--
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I think it's very important that
Christians treat others kindly
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as Christ would treat them.
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And at the same time,
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sincerely held religious
beliefs need to be respected.
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And at times that
bumps into each other
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and one has to go forward in
a sensitive ways as possible.
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Let's discuss the big issue
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and in religious liberty we
get some blowback from this,
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but the average
person I don't think
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has much thought about
it or heard any explanation.
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The United States
clearly, in the Constitution
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has a very workable
framework for religious liberty,
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guaranteeing--
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Well, the first amendment,
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government's out of
the religion business--
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Congress bill or law.
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Another law
establishing religion
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and it's not to
prevent the free exercise,
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sort of hands off in
the facilitating arrangement
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because that's argued a lot.
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But in my view,
the really big question
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and the answer lies in history,
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in the colonies
established by England
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because there was
input from friends
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and the Portuguese and others,
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but still these were
largely English colonies,
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they were not so
great on religious liberty.
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True. Very bad.
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Hanging, Quakers at one stage.
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You know, why would
anyone pick up Quakers,
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they were sort of--
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Although I think they were
little more aggressive back then
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but still they were
not violence or greatly,
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you would not think harmful
but Quakers were persecuted,
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Catholics, you know,
they were Satan's agents
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according to most of
the Protestants in the US.
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So very difficult pre-history
before the United States
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and yet as the US separated
from England with violence,
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civil war and then
formed its same constitution,
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out of that emerged
this very enlightened view.
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Where-- What's your view of...?
Where did the shift take place?
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They were not
clearly sociologically--
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You wouldn't expect
out of what was happening
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already in those
colonies, this would emerge.
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Well, I think it
was, it was developing
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and you look at Roger Williams
in Rhode Island and that--
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Who was expelled from--
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He was expelled
from Massachusetts
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and then went down
and founded Rhode Island.
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You look at the fact that
you had a Jewish synagogue
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in Rhode Island, that
dated back to that era.
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Maryland was founded
as a Catholic colony.
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And, so as you look at these,
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I think there was,
throughout this time
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a growing sense that we want
to have religious toleration.
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Now, when they came up
with the First Amendment
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of course it only
applied to Congress
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and it didn't
apply to the States.
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Giving the answer that I think
is the only real way to see it.
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You still had individual states
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right up to as
late I believe as 1840,
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having a state, giving support
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to a particular
church after the civil war.
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And, but they
gradually moved away from that.
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And then after the civil
war with the 14th Amendment,
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and equal protection of the
laws to everyone in every state,
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that has made it
applicable at state level.
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Yeah.
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And so what
you're saying is true.
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People don't
think much about it.
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These colonies were
not well prepared for it.
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But I think basically
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because there was a
diversity in the colonies,
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they couldn't
afford to get into it.
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So it was off the table,
protected in the constitution
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and then they were in a
growing experience that was--
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from other reasons not
good but the 14 amendment,
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I think when in
confirming now that
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this is the
requirement everywhere.
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Yes.
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The fix was in and
we become used to that,
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but it didn't happen naturally
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and along the way
there was some crazy things.
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We've even had an
article on Liberty
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on the extermination
order against the Mormons.
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I mean that-- Yes.
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We think that sort of
stuff only happened in Europe
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but we're dangerously close
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to the same sort of
religious bloodletting.
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Yes, the
persecution of the Mormons
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was certainly one clear example.
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But I think there was a
natural evolution and the--
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those who wrote the Constitution
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and the Bill of Rights
were writing it in a way--
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having been part
of the enlightenment,
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being ones who were reading
the philosophers in Europe
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and it had a very
positive influence.
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They were--
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Well, we're
greatly indebted to them.
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They thought this through,
they were of good intention,
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well educated by and large,
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not necessary to prove
that they were religious saints.
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No.
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They came from
different aspects,
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but I think they
had a common commitment
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to protecting
religion in the United States
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and they've been
vindicated, there's no question.
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And there's a representative
for the U.S. government,
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you've got a right.
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We're not
perfect in every regard
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but it's worked out well here
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and I think we can
encourage other countries
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and other places to
move that direction,
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maybe not on the
same constitutional basis.
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Well, I'll use
Suriname as an example,
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they absolutely have
freedom of religion there
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and people can convert
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from one religion
to another and do so.
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The example that in
Suriname, they like to hold up
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is the fact that
there is also a very pretty,
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very impressive Jewish synagogue
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right next door to a
very impressive mosque
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and that the two
communities get along
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and share a
parking lot and so on.
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It appears in
photographs there of the city.
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The Hindu community and
the Christian community--
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Now, they don't
necessarily interact religiously
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but they get
along and there are--
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there is
movement back and forth.
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But I do wish--
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I mean, that's good
and it is what it is,
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but you just reminded me,
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I do wish there
was more dialogue
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between the ministers
or the representatives
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of different
faiths because I can see
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even in dealing with
the religious liberty
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that there are
misunderstandings.
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Absolutely, there
are misunderstandings.
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Just factual misunderstandings,
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not misunderstanding the
intention of another group.
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But I remember meeting with
fairly high government official
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that we've had dealings
with in our church for years,
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but he and I had a
long took and he said,
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now would you
consider yourself Protestants?
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A Seventh-day--
I mean that's a--
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I mean, he gave
the question honestly
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but that told me
he had very little
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factual
information about who we were.
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And that
misunderstanding writ large
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if he was in a
public policy area
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could be
catastrophic for our church.
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Well, and that's
an educational issue
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then perhaps that--
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And I think, but I
think on the community level
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if the imams and the
pastor and the reverend,
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if they were-- and it can happen
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through the
ministers fraternity a little.
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But I know some
Seventh-day Adventist ministers
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are little lacks about meeting
regularly with their fellows
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and that sort of communication
is very good I think.
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I think it's very useful
and I did see it happening
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between many community leaders
in Suriname and church leaders,
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I would see it in
the Greater Toronto area
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where again, there's
a lot of interchange.
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But you're absolutely
right, there have been times--
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We spent four years in Calgary
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and there was
one Adventist pastor
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who was that I remember well,
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he was very
active in reaching out
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and working with
ministers of other communities
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and other churches.
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But he and I, as we spoke,
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he told me that at
times he has to remind his--
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he has had to remind his
fellow Adventist ministers
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of the benefits of
speaking with other communities
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and because there have
been those who thought that
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it wasn't useful to
have that kind of dialogue,
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I absolutely think it is.
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Well, you know,
the US government,
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like John Kerry at the moment,
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he spend a lot amount of
time talking to the Iranians
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and it's resulted in
an agreement of sorts.
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There are some
that don't like it,
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but I think it's
been a positive move.
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And yet on the church level
we often don't want to talk.
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I've had some interesting
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personal discussions
recently with the Dravidians
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who have nothing to
do with Adventism now
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but their origins
are not so dissimilar,
00:12:09.52\00:12:12.16
many of them were Adventists.
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They found there was
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an Adventist
literature evangelist
00:12:14.93\00:12:16.53
who had huge
doctrinal differences
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and went his own way,
almost a lifetime ago.
00:12:18.60\00:12:22.30
But I think it's
good to talk to them
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even if you're not
going to reconcile,
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you know, where
they're coming from.
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The reform Adventists,
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or a group of about
80,000 members in the world,
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we don't have any dialogue
with them that I know of
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and I sat down one day
with one of their leaders
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and I was quite surprised
at the common cause we have,
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and the lack of
a real controversy.
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I think these can only be
to the benefit of all people
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and to Christian
harmony or religious harmony.
00:12:52.03\00:12:55.90
I can see we
passed our break time.
00:12:55.94\00:12:58.71
We need to take a
break. Go, get a drink.
00:12:58.74\00:13:01.34
Do whatever you do
between times and come back
00:13:01.38\00:13:04.35
and join us in this
continuing conversation
00:13:04.38\00:13:06.95
about the basis of religious
liberty in the United States
00:13:06.98\00:13:10.19
and how that might be carried
forward in other countries.
00:13:10.22\00:13:14.16
Stay with us.
00:13:14.19\00:13:15.79