Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Nay
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000298B
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00:06 Welcome back to 'The Liberty Insider,'
00:07 with our ambassador from Suriname. 00:12 John, we were solving the world's problems. 00:15 Yeah. Yeah. 00:17 But as an ambassador 00:20 and working in different embassies 00:21 around the world, 00:23 under the auspices of the U.S. government. 00:27 You must have seen and participated in efforts 00:30 that our country has tried to initiate to 00:36 inform young people that there are better ways 00:40 than religious extremism and poverty and so on, 00:44 trying to improve their life 00:45 because the answer lies in the next generation, 00:47 doesn't it? 00:48 Well, the United States 00:49 has a very active public diplomacy program 00:51 and it's an effort to reach out to people 00:54 at all levels, including youth. 00:57 We have youth exchange programs. 01:00 And for example, 01:02 one of the ones that we had in Suriname 01:04 is part of the Yes Program Youth Education. 01:08 I've never heard about that before. 01:09 And we were able to send 01:12 roughly eight students to the United States for a year 01:16 at a US high school for each year 01:18 and then they would come back and another group would go. 01:22 A wonderful program 01:24 and definitely a way of acquainting these kids 01:28 with the United States. 01:29 You would see them come back 01:32 mature, much more outgoing, much more confident 01:37 but of course you can only reach 01:39 a limited number of people that way. 01:41 We had other programs going on 01:43 where we would work with people. 01:46 You and I spoke separately 01:47 about our environmental outreach 01:49 and that was a part of our public diplomacy program too. 01:54 We had Women In Business outreach programs 01:58 to try to help small businesses that were led by women 02:02 and lot of these efforts. 02:04 That's changed whole societies. 02:07 You talk about encouraging very small business loans for-- 02:09 Yes. Yeah. 02:11 I followed that for years. 02:13 And it-- it can make a huge difference. 02:15 And in India particularly for one example that I remember 02:18 that's transform village life for many of these people. 02:22 And there is no question that if women get an education, 02:27 it's good for society, 02:29 it's good for children of both genders 02:31 as they grow up. 02:32 Of course something 02:34 that the Taliban and Afghanistan had fought. 02:35 Sadly. Yeah, very sadly. 02:39 But, as far as the answer, one has to keep working, 02:45 you're never going to-- 02:48 you're never going to make Utopia on earth, 02:51 but at the same time 02:52 we need to keep doing what we can 02:54 and trying to help not only the people of those societies 02:58 but help their-- 03:01 help them avoid some of the extremists. 03:03 Although I do believe that on religion, 03:09 first of all I believe that 03:10 they are inherent with any religious system, 03:14 there are some theological positions 03:17 that sort of follow through on civil life 03:20 and you can't change those root positions 03:22 and they may be more or less benign or troublesome 03:26 depending on the group and yet we can't change that. 03:32 I also think there's a slight fallacy at work 03:35 within the U.S. 03:37 that we extrapolate overseas, 03:39 the idea that if someone is poor, 03:44 this whole basket of problems and conflicts can be taken away 03:48 if you just give them jobs 03:51 and improve their economic outlook. 03:55 I mean, it does tend to improve it 03:56 but is poverty the cause of that? 03:59 Well, again, there's no single cause. 04:03 Poverty is part of the problem. 04:05 Education is part of the problem. 04:08 As you see societies develop economically, 04:13 you also tend to see birth rates go down 04:17 and that has an advantage of improving prosperity. 04:23 But, yeah, there's no single answer. 04:27 And again, we're not going to solve every problem. 04:31 But religion should be part of the solution, 04:33 that's what I'm fishing for. 04:35 And ironically, it's often a big part of the problem, 04:38 but it should, by the claims of all religions, 04:41 not just Christianity. 04:43 Religion claims to be good for people 04:46 to sort their life out, to give them security, 04:48 to give them morality even. 04:50 I mean most religions-- 04:51 Well, their morality might differ from another religion, 04:53 they do have a moral construct 04:56 that they're calling people toward for their betterment, 04:59 I suppose. 05:01 And I do believe 05:02 that religion makes a positive contribution 05:04 and too often we ignore the effects of religion 05:08 as we're reviewing a society 05:12 in what direction they're going. 05:14 At the same time so often religion winds up 05:18 being an excuse and as people have other-- 05:23 there are political issues, economic issues, 05:26 ethnic conflicts and then one begins to focus on it 05:31 as if it's a religious problem. 05:34 And in fact, at times that gives religion a bad name 05:36 when if you were to go back to the Ireland problem 05:40 between the Protestants and the Catholics, 05:42 was that really a religious problem? 05:44 Well, probably not exactly. 05:48 But it began to be focused on as a religious problem. 05:52 It was on several levels. 05:55 You're getting close to-- In our private discussion, 05:58 I mention that I'm very partial to Oliver Cromwell. 06:01 At least in our lifetime, Ireland was all about religion 06:04 and all about what Cromwell did. 06:06 Remember, in the aftermathof his victory 06:09 in the civil war, he took an army of, 06:11 I think it was 50, 000 men and put Ireland to the sword. 06:15 Killed every Catholic he lays hand on, 06:17 brought in English Protestant aristocracy 06:22 and it was basically 06:23 a sort of a plantation mentality. 06:25 Absolutely. 06:27 And not at all a good thing that he did in that regard. 06:29 No. 06:30 No, he's a great hero in my mind 06:32 but that's the huge blot against Oliver Cromwell that 06:36 you can see it as in the spirit of the times 06:39 but he did it better or worse than anyone at his time. 06:42 I mean, that was a great black act. 06:45 Yeah, absolutely. 06:47 But your point is correct, 06:48 there's more going on than just-- 06:49 1960s and 70s problem was 06:53 there were religious aspects 06:56 but as much as anything it was economic and political-- 07:00 Well, economic because-- 07:01 Nationalistic fight. 07:03 The Catholics thought that the Protestants 07:05 had access to the money and jobs and so on. 07:08 So split along religious lines 07:09 even though religion didn't cause their problems. 07:12 Exactly. 07:13 And that is a point that I want to make is so often 07:17 religion gets the blame when it doesn't deserve it 07:21 but then people, you know, 07:23 that fight would have happened quite possibly, quite likely 07:28 regardless of whether it was Protestants or Catholics, 07:31 there just would have been other flashpoint. 07:32 Is it Nigeria with northern-- 07:34 Yeah, the northern are Muslim 07:36 and the southern are more Christian. 07:38 As you were saying that I thought, there were reasons 07:40 that they would have been an antipathy 07:42 between those two halves anyhow. 07:43 But religion made it worse in their cause, 07:45 as in other cases I think. 07:47 It becomes one other way of dividing groups 07:49 and pitting them against each other. 07:51 Now, the world is a complicated place, 07:53 but the faith that we have, we see it as a solution 07:57 very often as part of the problem for people 08:00 and that's very unfortunate. 08:04 What are the areas in the world where you were posted 08:07 did you see a situation where religion was at work 08:12 or perhaps a solution? 08:14 We spent 3 years in India. 08:16 Well, all the gods there, many, many gods. 08:19 A fascinating country, fascinating culture. 08:23 I thought it was a wonderful time, 08:25 very interesting time to be there 08:28 but indeed religion comes up. 08:31 There are Hindus who are wonderful people 08:35 and I had some very good friends 08:37 who were Hindus. 08:38 I enjoyed going to Hindu temples with them 08:41 and seeing that aspect of the culture. 08:46 But there are also those who feel under threat 08:50 because of the expansion of the Christian community 08:52 in parts of the country. 08:56 You're seeing the whole panoply of religions there. 08:58 Again, they have very significant Muslim minority. 09:01 Yeah. 09:02 And then the Jains, the Sikhs, 09:04 all of the rest, so-- 09:05 Yeah, not all of the Muslims went to Pakistan. 09:08 No. 09:10 You remember the number, 09:11 there's tens of millions of Muslims in India. 09:14 Oh, absolutely. 09:17 Actually there are probably 09:18 about 200 million Muslims in India. 09:21 I believe it's the second largest 09:23 Muslim country in the world 09:25 in terms of the number of people 09:27 who are Muslims in that country after Indonesian. 09:30 More than are in Pakistan. 09:32 You know that, most people don't know, 09:33 Indonesia is the largest Muslim country. 09:37 That's right. 09:38 And it's about 200 million so. 09:42 Yeah, even a bit more now, 240 or 250 million, I think. 09:46 But there are about 95% Muslim. 09:49 Australia is well aware of that 09:50 it's this dark-- it's not because they're Muslim 09:53 but this dark cloud hanging over the country 09:57 and there's been several 10 stand-offs over the years 10:01 between Indonesia and the British 10:03 when they were moving out of Malaysia 10:05 and then as the Dutch's, 10:07 they're moving out of New Guinea there. 10:09 Yes, well I know-- 10:11 I know it's a foreign policy issue for Australia. 10:14 Oh, big time. 10:16 But you know, on the other hand 10:20 Indonesia has its own viewpoint on that. 10:23 Oh, yeah. 10:24 You sound like my wife. 10:26 Whenever we hear some break-up, 10:28 she says it takes two to tango. 10:29 It's always that-- 10:30 Yes. 10:32 There's not just one side to an issue. 10:33 But you were asking about religion in other countries, 10:36 and India, I think it's a good example 10:38 of a hugely diverse religious community in a country 10:43 where you see occasional flashpoints 10:47 and you know, so often in fact, the-- 10:53 when the Muslim community has had a problem there, 10:56 at times it has been because they are a small minority, 11:00 even though they have many, many people-- 11:02 Oh, I know the Hindus 11:03 have attacked Muslims many times. 11:04 It's not a one way street. There have been communal riots. 11:06 And one thing that I like you to comment on, 11:11 one of the flashpoints 11:13 between Hindus and Christians is over the untouchables 11:17 in large numbers joining Christianity. 11:19 Well, that's a real dynamic and a real flashpoint, 11:22 but I see that as a root of sociological shift 11:26 that religion just sort of stepped into. 11:28 Well, I think you're probably right on that. 11:31 In any case the-- 11:33 I see religion as something that is a real plus 11:36 and something that as we look at religion, 11:40 we want to keep in mind that it's not the fault, 11:45 it is a benefit. 11:47 But again, we believe in religious liberty 11:50 and as we spread our own view, our own religion 11:56 we want to do it in a way 11:57 that is mindful of other people's sensitivities. 12:02 A few decades ago 12:04 there was much talk of the ecumenical movement. 12:06 My own church, 12:08 the Seventh-day Adventist church 12:09 was not much interested in this 12:11 because we saw by observation that the ecumenical movement 12:15 as then constituted was more about dumbing down 12:20 or diluting the differences between religions. 12:24 And a religion to be important, to be significant 12:27 must stand for something. 12:29 But in the post-ecumenical movement 12:33 what is needed in this modern world 12:35 I think is more communication, 12:38 more explanation between religions. 12:41 In my observation, 12:42 much of the conflict arises from misunderstandings 12:46 about different faiths, their agenda, their doctrines, 12:50 their worldview because like it or not 12:55 globally, religious forces 12:57 are conspiring to destroy the peace and harmony 13:01 that doesn't always exist but that should exist. 13:05 We need to talk to others, of course share our faith 13:09 but in sharing information about our faith 13:12 and listening to others share their information, 13:15 we can have clarity of purpose and understanding 13:18 in all religious activity globally. 13:23 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-09-10