Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Nay
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000298A
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00:22 Welcome to 'The Liberty Insider.'
00:24 This is a program bringing you discussion, news, 00:27 up-to-date information 00:29 and general analysis of religious liberty events 00:31 in the United States and around the world. 00:34 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:38 and my guest is ambassador John Nay, 00:40 retired from the Civil Service 00:44 from the-- From the Foreign Service 00:46 Foreign Service, which I guess is under the Civil Service. 00:49 But you were last ambassador to Suriname. 00:51 Yes. 00:52 But I-- in one of our other programs 00:56 you flitted through some of your other experiences 00:59 and I know you told me you're in Singapore for a few years. 01:01 Yes. 01:02 We spent 2 years in Singapore. 01:04 Now Singapore, like Suriname 01:06 is a mixing pop 01:08 of many different cultures and religions 01:11 and it's close to Malaysia 01:12 which I know struggling with Islamic fundamentalism. 01:17 As someone in the diplomatic service, 01:20 they're representing the US 01:21 and I'm sure watching all of this very closely, 01:25 what's your take on what we can do in the west 01:29 from the United States 01:30 and as Christians dealing with other faith? 01:33 How can we interact in a way 01:36 that inhibits this clear rise of fundamentalism in Islam? 01:41 Or put it another way, 01:42 any religion sort of reverting to its worst aspects? 01:47 Yeah. 01:48 If I had the answer to that question-- 01:50 Well, I know but I want to hear your brain storming at that. 01:53 Nobody has the total answer. It's obvious. 01:55 Right, it's a tough-- that's a tough, tough question. 01:58 But what part was the U.S. doing 02:01 from your observation to counteract that? 02:04 You know, part of the problem was also that 02:08 when a country or a culture feels under threat, 02:12 people will then begin to react and try to find ways to counter 02:19 what they perceive as the threat 02:21 and I mean, even if you go back to 02:23 when there were Christian martyrs, 02:26 in fact it caused growth in the number of people 02:31 who were Christians. 02:32 Right. 02:34 Because it drew all sorts of attention. 02:37 And there's no question 02:39 that some of the Islamic cultures, 02:44 Arab culture and-- 02:47 They feel threatened. 02:48 Muslims, they have felt threatened. 02:50 And they have been threatened. 02:51 Well, and during the colonial period 02:54 there was no question 02:55 that they were under the domination 02:57 of western powers 02:59 and now with a new found wealth of oil-wealth 03:04 and with some of the other events that took place. 03:09 Everything from the Russian invasion of Afghanistan to 03:12 of course, unfortunately the American invasion of Iraq 03:16 it has provided an excuse for reactions like this, 03:21 even if not justified. 03:23 And so I think one of the things 03:27 that we need to keep very much in mind 03:29 is that just as in physics, 03:33 to every action there is a reaction. 03:35 When we begin to make decisions on 03:39 what we're going to do in the international arena, 03:42 we have to realize that there will be reactions, 03:45 and we need to think those through 03:48 maybe better than we have in the past. 03:52 The comment you make is historically proven 03:55 and we're living through it now 03:57 that the religious group feeling under threat 04:00 had actually seems to attract adherence 04:06 and as Seventh-day Adventist Christians, 04:08 we are very aware of the persecutions 04:11 of the early Christian era. 04:12 We were very aware of the conflicts 04:16 during the Reformation there 04:17 between Christians that were bad 04:20 and yet different groups grew as a result. 04:23 And we look forward, not anticipating 04:26 but expecting end time persecution, 04:30 and I wonder about that dynamic. 04:32 It seems consistent with that. 04:33 We could expect a remnant movement 04:37 to actually flourish under a certain opposition 04:41 and it's counterintuitive to most people. 04:43 You know it's possible and-- or total numbers might shrink 04:48 but become a muchmore dedicated group. 04:51 I mean, it's not something to encourage 04:54 I think and as you said. 04:56 And I think there's been at times 05:01 too much emphasis on the persecution aspect, 05:05 perhaps as a way of trying to scare people into the church. 05:11 I think that the best thing to do 05:14 is to think about where we are now 05:16 and what we can do now to-- 05:20 No, no sane person would want trouble 05:24 for it's-- for trouble sake. 05:26 I do think many dedicated Christians over the years like, 05:31 wasn't it-- was it Peter crucified upside down? 05:34 Oh, yes, that was the truth. 05:36 And you know, sort of seeing 05:39 this moment of truth is exciting 05:40 because he gets to emulate the Lord. 05:42 But I'm not sure even the apostles that were martyrs 05:45 would have chosen at per se, but it was coming up, 05:48 there was an inevitability and they gloried in it 05:51 that they were called to do that. 05:53 But no sane person wants trouble, 05:56 I'm just certain of that. 05:57 They don't want physical harm and all those sort of things. 06:01 We need to be careful of that. 06:03 And I'm not even really sure some of these Jihadis, 06:07 you know, they're not as one dimensional 06:09 as we have imagined 06:10 but they've been put to the wall, 06:12 they've been polarized to the point 06:13 that this is their transition 06:16 that their faith calls them to it. 06:17 But I don't think 06:18 it comes naturally to any human being 06:20 to just snuff themselves out like that. 06:22 No, not at all. 06:24 Although I don't know that I would agree with the line 06:26 about no sane person because that implies 06:29 that some of these people are actually insane 06:34 and not responsible. 06:35 And of course, they are absolutely responsible 06:39 for what they do. 06:41 Unfortunately many of the extremists 06:45 on any-- in any group who engage in violence are-- 06:51 they haven't a broad education, 06:54 they wind up with a very narrow education in fact 06:58 and get pumped full of propaganda 07:01 and to the point where they may be believe it. 07:05 So- 07:06 But still, I know a lot of it-- 07:10 I don't disagree with that statement. 07:13 I just would define sane because a person can be sane 07:17 but at that particular moment acting very irrationally, 07:20 so they're not-- 07:24 There's, other factors, there's other factors 07:27 that are giving them a temporary madness 07:28 I think that's real. 07:30 Not rational in our view but they see it-- 07:33 Oh, yeah. 07:34 No, it's consistent with the viewpoint 07:35 and I would hope even as a Seventh-day Adventist, 07:39 when and if, if it's in my lifetime 07:42 a great moment of truth comes 07:44 that I hope that I would, 07:46 you know, keep my eyes fixed on heaven 07:49 and grit my teeth and do what I have to do for my Lord, 07:53 that's not insanity 07:55 because that's usually a funnel toward it. 07:57 But for someone to make the choice 07:59 to throw away their life, 08:02 usually it's to take someone else's life, 08:04 that is a very negative. 08:05 Yes. 08:07 I think at times-- 08:09 Well, by definition, a satanic emphasis 08:11 because God is not-- 08:14 never encourage us to destroy other people. 08:16 God is the creator, not the destroyer. 08:19 But I think a lot of the time when you hinted at it, 08:22 in these situations 08:23 people's life-choices are very limited 08:27 and I've been to Indonesia, been to many countries 08:30 and Pakistan and so on. 08:32 And I've seen very, very poor people, 08:34 malnourished, no real life-choices, 08:38 surrounded by an oppressive religious viewpoint 08:41 as well as a historical 08:43 or a take on history that sees them 08:45 as they hardly done by, they've been repressed. 08:50 It's sort of where do they go from here? 08:52 Just like in the Middle Ages, it's obvious to me 08:57 that a lot of the battles and the social developments 09:01 were all premised on the idea that their life was not sure 09:04 from one day to the next, they're not gonna live long. 09:06 So you're more likely to want to be a hero in a battle, 09:08 to go out in glory. 09:10 You might die next day from a cold. 09:13 And so I think a lot of that's at play 09:14 with the radical violent fundamentalists. 09:18 But what I'm thinking more about is 09:20 just in societies that are relatively stable, 09:25 people are rational not in the fanatical-radical fringe 09:28 but how do-- Did you observe? 09:31 How do large communities 09:33 of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists in there, 09:35 what are the elements that can work toward 09:39 a common humanity and at least respect for-- 09:43 Well, I think getting to know each other 09:44 makes a big difference. 09:45 And when I lived in Toronto and saw the communities there, 09:52 there's quite a lot of interaction, 09:54 there was an opportunity to work with Muslim communities 09:59 in that area and all the different ethnic groups. 10:02 It's truly-- they use the term a mosaic of cultures. 10:06 And so I would say that, 10:10 that that is excellent way of working together, 10:14 there were imams 10:16 who were seeking to help their communities 10:20 understand others. 10:22 But even there sometimes you wound up 10:25 with youths who felt disaffected 10:29 and the internet of course is a great resource 10:32 but at times it also becomes a problem. 10:35 And so they even there had a few youths 10:39 who would wind up linking up with extremist elements. 10:43 It's not something that's the community's fault 10:45 so much as something to try to work 10:49 to ensure that youths don't feel that way, 10:54 give them alternatives and-- 10:57 It is a phenomenon that we're going to have to face. 10:59 It is. 11:00 I was in Australia, last summer, within the year. 11:04 Don't quite know when this show was shown 11:05 but it's relatively recently. 11:08 And they were having trouble 11:10 with young people from Australia 11:12 signing up with ISIL, about 500 Australians, 11:15 and there are some Muslim communities 11:17 but they're very well integrated 11:18 there by and large. 11:20 Radicalism is not part of society 11:24 even if in the mosque they discussed a bit, 11:26 but the appeal from the internet 11:29 and I think testosterone surge of teenagers, 11:32 "I want to go out and have an adventure." 11:35 Well, I think that-- 11:36 And in some ways I feel-- 11:39 well, not sorry but I feel sympathetic 11:42 with what's going on 11:43 because from my study of history, 11:46 lot of Americans went over 11:47 and fought in the Spanish Civil War. 11:49 It was like an adventure to help someone else 11:54 and the French Lafayette came over here 11:57 to have a bit of a good time and help freedom here. 12:00 I wonder how much of it is not youthful enthusiasm 12:03 and idealism 12:04 but being subverted by some canny old guys 12:08 that have rather darker visions. 12:11 I think that's very possible. 12:12 Again, looking at 12:13 how our own frontier worked westward. 12:17 A lot of it was very young people 12:19 going out and moving forward and having adventures, 12:25 often getting killed doing it. 12:27 Now we're running out of time, 12:29 so maybe it's a good time to make the break. 12:32 We'll be back with this discussion. 12:34 Stay with us. 12:35 We'll talk about maybe some ways 12:38 to counter what's happening in the world around us. |
Revised 2015-09-10