Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Dr. John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000295B
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00:03 Welcome back to the "Liberty Insider."
00:04 Before the break, with Dr. John Graz 00:08 we were talking a bit about a historical moment 00:12 soon to come with the pope of Rome, Francis, 00:15 he's going to address the joint session of congress 00:20 and I don't think I'd said that but I'm suggesting 00:25 that he probably will float before congress 00:29 the family rest day and we had been discussing 00:33 that Its been discussed widely in Europe 00:38 its origins are not real clear but once it appeared 00:42 all of the churches 00:44 and the dominant catholic church in Europe 00:46 has been very aggressive in promoting this, 00:52 but it has social advantages, it has economic advantages, 00:56 energy saving, regenerate society and so on. 00:59 There's really no logical thing against it. 01:03 It put a kind of protection from the economic-- 01:06 economy and those who say that, 01:08 you know, the most important is to get more money, 01:12 to have more people working 01:14 and that's about quality of life of course. 01:16 It emphasizes the spirit of the times 01:18 post 2008 collapse in particular 01:23 but from a prophetic point of view 01:25 and what we have seen dominant churches 01:30 and in particularly the dominant church Rome 01:33 during the middle ages do it, 01:35 you know there's some reason to take pause. 01:37 I think he will mention it because I've noticed not only 01:40 is he talking little up lately in Europe 01:42 well everywhere but in particular in Europe 01:45 but the day before he address this Congress 01:48 he is meeting with the world federation 01:52 or whatever of family. 01:54 So I know the day before he'll be talking about it 01:57 and I would think fresh with that he's gonna float it. 02:01 Yeah, this is right and its not a you know talking 02:04 to some of your Adventist 02:05 he was that no are our expectation based on prophecy 02:08 that at some point there'll be again a very avert 02:11 Sunday law this is not it. 02:14 But it could be a sort of a light slope into it. 02:18 Exactly, everything which is connected with Sunday 02:20 or Sunday law its important for us to know. 02:23 But I have to say that in Europe, you know, 02:25 it-- the Sunday law was almost applied in almost 02:30 all of the country in Europe. 02:32 You go to England, you go to many-- even in Switzerland 02:34 I remember Sunday you don't have the right 02:36 to do a lot of things. 02:38 If you do that you could be fined. 02:40 Well, there's sun-- yeah, there's Sunday laws some what 02:43 like the blue laws that America used to have. 02:45 Yeah, yeah and it means you know that you are 02:47 but the problem-- the question is, 02:50 "You have the right to go to church on Saturday 02:52 and you have to-- the right not to work on Saturday." 02:55 It means that Sunday alone as it is now 02:58 in most of the country of Europe 03:01 doesn't create a problem for those who don't observe 03:05 Sunday as a day of rest, religious day of rest. 03:08 But you know that's interesting its coming back-- 03:11 Seems to be coming back and-- 03:12 And its coming back first against you know the-- 03:15 those who want to put the economy in the first. 03:19 And also its coming back as in the battle between, 03:24 you know, extreme liberal and you know conservative 03:29 and in some way Christians. 03:32 Who Christian has almost nothing to say it in Europe. 03:35 But with this issue they will come back and say, 03:38 "Hey, we defend people, we defend human right, 03:43 we defend the family, we defend and so on. 03:46 You don't care about the family. 03:47 You want all people work on even on Sunday. 03:49 We say, no, family are more important than business." 03:54 And I wouldn't equate it but I'll still mention this 03:57 by way of parallel. 03:59 The Nazi regime in Germany had some rather 04:03 sinister aspects to their agenda. 04:05 But they came to power on same thing, 04:06 appealing the family values, lowering crime 04:10 against immorality and so on. 04:11 And this is why-- 04:13 So while these are valid, 04:14 very valid in the family rest day. 04:17 I don't think it's just a PR point. 04:19 It will do this. 04:20 It will shift the focus from big business 04:24 and economic growth 04:26 that overcast back to family values, 04:28 community values, energy saving and so on. 04:31 But I believe that it's just 04:34 a first step on a larger agenda. 04:37 No, I don't have to know what's said behind closed doors. 04:40 I just know that it's the nature of all religions 04:42 in power to want to as a paper document 04:47 said the India's dominant. 04:49 They should work to have civil legislations to support 04:52 the day of worship. 04:53 That will be the go of something like this 04:56 I think to enforce it by law 04:58 that you go to church on a certain day. 05:01 And of course for those who don't share this point of view 05:04 like Adventist, Jews and some other-- 05:07 There have been some exemptions initially. 05:09 We had some proposals in this discussion. 05:11 And I always said that you know 05:12 we understand that was our position. 05:14 We understand that we need a day of rest. 05:17 There is no problem and the tradition in Europe 05:19 has always been the Sunday the day of rest. 05:22 But now you have to think about those who don't have 05:26 the same day of rest according to what they believe. 05:29 It means if you make a proposal mention that the freedom 05:35 should be given to those 05:37 who don't have the same day of rest. 05:40 It means okay the majority will have this Sunday 05:43 as a day of rest. 05:44 But those who don't have should be respected 05:47 and if they don't want to work 05:49 because they have religious conviction on Saturday 05:53 they should be protected. 05:54 That would be our suggestion 05:57 and I'm not sure that it will work. 05:58 Well, I'm thinking the time of liberal openness 06:01 that would be accepted. 06:03 But the nature of things is things toughen up 06:06 and perhaps some stress has come along 06:08 like continued terrorism and so on. 06:10 We might find that there's not so-- 06:12 And of course after you have adjusted minorities, you know, 06:15 and the minority are not really 06:17 very strong to face a kind of movement. 06:21 It means we have to follow that very carefully. 06:24 It's interesting because Sunday is coming back and we have to 06:28 make sure that religious freedom 06:31 will be protected at least. 06:34 You know every time, every time you have a problem or an attack 06:37 on religious freedom at the same time it gives you 06:41 the possibility to do something-- 06:44 And to talk positively. And to talk positively about. 06:46 This is-- I see that as an opportunity. 06:48 Absolutely. 06:50 I have said it on this program before and I need to go 06:51 and check whether this is so well. 06:53 I didn't check but it's a powerful 06:55 but this supposedly an oriental saying 06:58 that a crisis is dangerous opportunity. 07:00 Yeah, exactly. 07:02 And so yeah, with the test comes a wonderful chance 07:06 to explain religious liberty and why we object to it. 07:10 And sometime we miss that. 07:11 And you know even talking about 07:13 this national or this family rest day, 07:17 I don't think in itself is anything wrong with it. 07:19 I just see it is part of a larger move 07:22 and the real issue at play 07:24 is separation of church and state. 07:26 If we maintain that principle it will tend to self correct. 07:29 And when some thing like this comes forward 07:31 because it would only be allowed 07:33 if it had a secular purpose and religion. 07:35 But you know this little thing is slipped in. 07:38 This is the day you are encouraged to worship. 07:40 And that's just a little bit dangerous at that point. 07:43 But if it goes to the next step it crossed 07:44 the line of separation of church and state. 07:47 You know, Lincoln, I think that some time we miss 07:49 the opportunity to react when religious freedom was attacked. 07:54 I remember when you had in France 07:56 and in some part of Europe 07:57 you know this big discussion about the headscarf 08:00 of young girl going to school. 08:03 And you know, I remember talking about people 08:06 and many Christians said that's not our problem you know. 08:10 Yes, the state should impose why we have religious symbol. 08:13 And they did not see that 08:14 as you mention that was the first step. 08:17 At the end you know Adventists were concerned 08:20 because people said that with the same principle 08:25 not going to school on Saturday for religious reason 08:28 is like a religious symbol. 08:30 You impose your religion in a system 08:33 and we cannot accept that. 08:34 But if at the beginning we had said, "Okay, 08:38 we see that this is something which attacked 08:41 religious freedom of these young Muslims. 08:44 We should defend them." 08:46 What is the problem to have 08:47 just a headscarf going to school? 08:49 What is the problem? 08:50 You know and on behalf of religious freedom 08:54 we could have been on the frontline. 08:56 Yeah, I think it's a good point 08:58 because you'd know at the same time 08:59 that France was and still is in a process of secularization. 09:05 What's the term you used? Laicite. 09:08 Laicite so that that religion is not, you know, 09:12 there's civil things and there is religion 09:15 For that definite laicite is another ideology. 09:19 You know its-- And it was used aggressively. 09:20 At the beginning you know people believed that 09:22 its neutrality but, you know, that's more than that. 09:25 It's just another ideology. 09:27 And when I was in Chile you know they asked me 09:29 a group of Christians they are who have connection. 09:33 They organize and they work at the Congress in Chile. 09:37 They asked me to speak to the human rights commission. 09:41 And to speak about you know laicite because-- 09:44 they are following the French model. 09:46 And I explained that, you know, if you defend human right 09:50 don't forget that religious freedom 09:52 is one of the basic human rights. 09:55 It's not something that's against human right 09:57 its one of the basic human right. 09:59 And I think its been said accurately that you can gauge 10:03 all civil liberties 10:04 by the stage of religious liberty. 10:06 Yeah, exactly. It's impossible-- 10:08 The freedom of expression, the freedom of association. 10:10 It's impossible to diminish religious liberty 10:12 without affecting all civil liberty. 10:14 Yeah, absolutely. 10:16 And one person I heard say that with some conviction 10:19 was Hillary Clinton which I thought was admirable of her 10:23 to say it that way. 10:24 And I hope that she is elected president 10:26 but she will put that into action. 10:28 But unfortunately even in this president administration 10:32 there was one period that they elevated gay rights 10:34 above religious rights. 10:36 Do you remember that? 10:37 It was stated as a policy of the state department 10:41 that they would demand that any country agree 10:44 with gay rights in the way it was stated 10:48 you could see that religious liberty was not 10:51 on the back bone but it had lost place to that thing. 10:55 Which will offend ironically the gay rights thing will 10:58 actually offend religious sensibilities 10:59 in many countries. 11:01 Yeah. 11:02 That is one of the challenge 11:03 today in some democratic countries 11:05 and its almost all democratic countries. 11:08 You know the individual rights 11:10 averse the religious freedom rights 11:13 and some times you have to choose 11:15 and its not easy but you know-- 11:16 You're right there is a-- there's a little tension 11:18 at the best of times before in competing rights 11:20 or aspects of rights. 11:23 You know, religious freedom is-- it doesn't mean that 11:26 everything is easier and you solve all the problems. 11:30 Religious freedom like all other freedom 11:32 open the field of tension but it also give us 11:36 and give to the citizen of the country 11:39 the possibility to find a solution 11:42 which is acceptable by people. 11:45 And that is the best way. 11:47 You know first you have to talk with people you have to see 11:50 how we can deal but wave out forgetting 11:53 that religious freedom is a basic human right. 11:59 Whenever we talk about power in our modern age we are inclined 12:03 to think of military force, political power, 12:08 police section all of the civil determinants of power. 12:12 But of course the Bible says the true power comes from God. 12:17 But as God's representatives 12:19 we must deal with these civil powers. 12:24 And it's been the privilege of many of us working 12:26 for religious liberty to interact with the leaders 12:30 and the responsible officials 12:31 in charge of any number of countries. 12:34 We need to realize that in witnessing true power 12:38 speaking about religious freedom 12:40 that we are communicating 12:42 the very principles of the gospel. 12:45 And while they may have the power over us in this world. 12:50 As Paul says, "They exercise the sword not in vain." 12:54 We hope the sword is not directed against us 12:56 but there is a civil power that they exercise. 12:59 But ultimately even these powers must recognize 13:03 the ultimate power and the power 13:05 that is most responsible 13:08 for things in this world is from God 13:10 and it's the principle of His kingdom. 13:14 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-08-20