Welcome back to
the "Liberty Insider."
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Before the break,
with Dr. John Graz
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we were talking a bit
about a historical moment
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soon to come with the
pope of Rome, Francis,
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he's going to address
the joint session of congress
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and I don't think I'd
said that but I'm suggesting
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that he probably
will float before congress
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the family rest day
and we had been discussing
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that Its been
discussed widely in Europe
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its origins are not real
clear but once it appeared
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all of the churches
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and the dominant
catholic church in Europe
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has been very
aggressive in promoting this,
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but it has social advantages,
it has economic advantages,
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energy saving,
regenerate society and so on.
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There's really no
logical thing against it.
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It put a kind of
protection from the economic--
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economy and those who say that,
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you know, the most
important is to get more money,
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to have more people working
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and that's about
quality of life of course.
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It emphasizes the
spirit of the times
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post 2008 collapse in particular
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but from a
prophetic point of view
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and what we have
seen dominant churches
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and in particularly
the dominant church Rome
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during the middle ages do it,
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you know there's
some reason to take pause.
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I think he will mention it
because I've noticed not only
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is he talking
little up lately in Europe
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well everywhere but
in particular in Europe
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but the day before
he address this Congress
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he is meeting with
the world federation
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or whatever of family.
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So I know the day before
he'll be talking about it
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and I would think fresh
with that he's gonna float it.
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Yeah, this is right and
its not a you know talking
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to some of your Adventist
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he was that no are our
expectation based on prophecy
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that at some point
there'll be again a very avert
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Sunday law this is not it.
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But it could be a sort
of a light slope into it.
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Exactly, everything
which is connected with Sunday
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or Sunday law its
important for us to know.
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But I have to say
that in Europe, you know,
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it-- the Sunday law was
almost applied in almost
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all of the country in Europe.
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You go to England, you go
to many-- even in Switzerland
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I remember Sunday
you don't have the right
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to do a lot of things.
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If you do that
you could be fined.
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Well, there's sun-- yeah,
there's Sunday laws some what
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like the blue laws
that America used to have.
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Yeah, yeah and it
means you know that you are
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but the
problem-- the question is,
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"You have the right to
go to church on Saturday
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and you have to-- the
right not to work on Saturday."
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It means that
Sunday alone as it is now
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in most of the country of Europe
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doesn't create a problem
for those who don't observe
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Sunday as a day of
rest, religious day of rest.
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But you know that's
interesting its coming back--
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Seems to be coming back and--
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And its coming back
first against you know the--
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those who want to put
the economy in the first.
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And also its coming back
as in the battle between,
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you know, extreme liberal
and you know conservative
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and in some way Christians.
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Who Christian has almost
nothing to say it in Europe.
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But with this issue
they will come back and say,
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"Hey, we defend
people, we defend human right,
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we defend the
family, we defend and so on.
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You don't care about the family.
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You want all people
work on even on Sunday.
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We say, no, family are
more important than business."
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And I wouldn't equate it
but I'll still mention this
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by way of parallel.
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The Nazi regime in
Germany had some rather
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sinister
aspects to their agenda.
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But they came to
power on same thing,
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appealing the family
values, lowering crime
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against immorality and so on.
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And this is why--
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So while these are valid,
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very valid in
the family rest day.
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I don't think
it's just a PR point.
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It will do this.
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It will shift the
focus from big business
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and economic growth
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that overcast
back to family values,
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community values,
energy saving and so on.
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But I believe that it's just
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a first step on a larger agenda.
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No, I don't have to know
what's said behind closed doors.
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I just know that it's
the nature of all religions
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in power to want
to as a paper document
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said the India's dominant.
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They should work to have
civil legislations to support
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the day of worship.
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That will be the go
of something like this
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I think to enforce it by law
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that you go to
church on a certain day.
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And of course for those who
don't share this point of view
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like Adventist,
Jews and some other--
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There have been some
exemptions initially.
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We had some
proposals in this discussion.
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And I always said that you know
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we understand
that was our position.
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We understand that
we need a day of rest.
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There is no problem
and the tradition in Europe
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has always been the
Sunday the day of rest.
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But now you have to think
about those who don't have
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the same day of rest
according to what they believe.
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It means if you make a proposal
mention that the freedom
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should be given to those
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who don't have
the same day of rest.
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It means okay the
majority will have this Sunday
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as a day of rest.
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But those who don't
have should be respected
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and if they don't want to work
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because they have
religious conviction on Saturday
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they should be protected.
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That would be our suggestion
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and I'm not sure
that it will work.
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Well, I'm thinking the
time of liberal openness
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that would be accepted.
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But the nature of
things is things toughen up
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and perhaps some
stress has come along
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like continued
terrorism and so on.
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We might find
that there's not so--
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And of course after you have
adjusted minorities, you know,
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and the minority are not really
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very strong to
face a kind of movement.
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It means we have to
follow that very carefully.
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It's interesting because Sunday
is coming back and we have to
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make sure that religious freedom
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will be protected at least.
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You know every time, every time
you have a problem or an attack
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on religious freedom at
the same time it gives you
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the possibility
to do something--
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And to talk positively.
And to talk positively about.
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This is-- I see
that as an opportunity.
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Absolutely.
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I have said it on this
program before and I need to go
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and check
whether this is so well.
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I didn't check
but it's a powerful
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but this
supposedly an oriental saying
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that a crisis is
dangerous opportunity.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And so yeah, with the
test comes a wonderful chance
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to explain religious
liberty and why we object to it.
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And sometime we miss that.
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And you know even talking about
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this national or
this family rest day,
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I don't think in itself
is anything wrong with it.
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I just see it is
part of a larger move
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and the real issue at play
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is separation of
church and state.
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If we maintain that principle
it will tend to self correct.
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And when some thing
like this comes forward
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because it would only be allowed
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if it had a secular
purpose and religion.
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But you know this
little thing is slipped in.
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This is the day you
are encouraged to worship.
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And that's just a little
bit dangerous at that point.
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But if it goes to
the next step it crossed
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the line of
separation of church and state.
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You know, Lincoln, I
think that some time we miss
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the opportunity to react when
religious freedom was attacked.
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I remember when
you had in France
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and in some part of Europe
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you know this big
discussion about the headscarf
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of young girl going to school.
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And you know, I
remember talking about people
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and many Christians said
that's not our problem you know.
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Yes, the state should impose
why we have religious symbol.
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And they did not see that
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as you mention
that was the first step.
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At the end you know
Adventists were concerned
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because people said
that with the same principle
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not going to school on
Saturday for religious reason
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is like a religious symbol.
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You impose your
religion in a system
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and we cannot accept that.
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But if at the
beginning we had said, "Okay,
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we see that this is
something which attacked
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religious freedom
of these young Muslims.
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We should defend them."
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What is the problem to have
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just a
headscarf going to school?
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What is the problem?
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You know and on
behalf of religious freedom
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we could have
been on the frontline.
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Yeah, I think it's a good point
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because you'd
know at the same time
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that France was and still is
in a process of secularization.
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What's the term
you used? Laicite.
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Laicite so that that
religion is not, you know,
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there's civil things
and there is religion
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For that definite
laicite is another ideology.
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You know its-- And it
was used aggressively.
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At the beginning you
know people believed that
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its neutrality but, you
know, that's more than that.
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It's just another ideology.
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And when I was in
Chile you know they asked me
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a group of Christians
they are who have connection.
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They organize and they
work at the Congress in Chile.
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They asked me to speak to
the human rights commission.
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And to speak about
you know laicite because--
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they are
following the French model.
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And I explained that, you
know, if you defend human right
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don't forget
that religious freedom
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is one of the
basic human rights.
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It's not something
that's against human right
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its one of the
basic human right.
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And I think its been said
accurately that you can gauge
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all civil liberties
00:10:03.06\00:10:04.47
by the stage of
religious liberty.
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Yeah, exactly. It's impossible--
00:10:06.77\00:10:08.64
The freedom of expression,
the freedom of association.
00:10:08.67\00:10:10.91
It's impossible to
diminish religious liberty
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without affecting
all civil liberty.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And one person I heard
say that with some conviction
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was Hillary Clinton which I
thought was admirable of her
00:10:19.38\00:10:22.98
to say it that way.
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And I hope that she
is elected president
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but she will put
that into action.
00:10:26.42\00:10:28.42
But unfortunately even in
this president administration
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there was one period
that they elevated gay rights
00:10:32.33\00:10:34.86
above religious rights.
00:10:34.90\00:10:36.23
Do you remember that?
00:10:36.26\00:10:37.60
It was stated as a
policy of the state department
00:10:37.63\00:10:41.80
that they would
demand that any country agree
00:10:41.84\00:10:44.54
with gay rights in
the way it was stated
00:10:44.57\00:10:48.44
you could see that
religious liberty was not
00:10:48.48\00:10:51.91
on the back bone but it
had lost place to that thing.
00:10:51.95\00:10:55.22
Which will offend ironically
the gay rights thing will
00:10:55.25\00:10:57.99
actually offend
religious sensibilities
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in many countries.
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Yeah.
00:11:01.16\00:11:02.49
That is one of the challenge
00:11:02.52\00:11:03.86
today in some
democratic countries
00:11:03.89\00:11:05.73
and its almost all
democratic countries.
00:11:05.76\00:11:08.16
You know the individual rights
00:11:08.20\00:11:10.27
averse the
religious freedom rights
00:11:10.30\00:11:13.23
and some times
you have to choose
00:11:13.27\00:11:15.20
and its not easy but you know--
00:11:15.24\00:11:16.91
You're right there is
a-- there's a little tension
00:11:16.94\00:11:18.64
at the best of times
before in competing rights
00:11:18.67\00:11:20.64
or aspects of rights.
00:11:20.68\00:11:23.24
You know, religious freedom
is-- it doesn't mean that
00:11:23.28\00:11:26.05
everything is easier and
you solve all the problems.
00:11:26.08\00:11:30.05
Religious freedom
like all other freedom
00:11:30.09\00:11:32.75
open the field of
tension but it also give us
00:11:32.79\00:11:36.86
and give to the
citizen of the country
00:11:36.89\00:11:39.49
the possibility
to find a solution
00:11:39.53\00:11:42.66
which is acceptable by people.
00:11:42.70\00:11:45.67
And that is the best way.
00:11:45.70\00:11:47.34
You know first you have to
talk with people you have to see
00:11:47.37\00:11:50.11
how we can deal
but wave out forgetting
00:11:50.14\00:11:53.41
that religious freedom
is a basic human right.
00:11:53.44\00:11:59.55
Whenever we talk about power in
our modern age we are inclined
00:11:59.58\00:12:03.62
to think of military
force, political power,
00:12:03.65\00:12:08.26
police section all of the
civil determinants of power.
00:12:08.29\00:12:12.16
But of course the Bible says
the true power comes from God.
00:12:12.19\00:12:17.00
But as God's representatives
00:12:17.03\00:12:19.23
we must deal with
these civil powers.
00:12:19.27\00:12:24.21
And it's been the
privilege of many of us working
00:12:24.24\00:12:26.11
for religious liberty to
interact with the leaders
00:12:26.14\00:12:30.18
and the responsible officials
00:12:30.21\00:12:31.61
in charge of any
number of countries.
00:12:31.65\00:12:34.35
We need to realize that
in witnessing true power
00:12:34.38\00:12:38.02
speaking about religious freedom
00:12:38.05\00:12:40.82
that we are communicating
00:12:40.86\00:12:42.19
the very
principles of the gospel.
00:12:42.22\00:12:45.39
And while they may have the
power over us in this world.
00:12:45.43\00:12:50.43
As Paul says, "They
exercise the sword not in vain."
00:12:50.47\00:12:54.37
We hope the sword is
not directed against us
00:12:54.40\00:12:56.71
but there is a civil
power that they exercise.
00:12:56.74\00:12:59.47
But ultimately even
these powers must recognize
00:12:59.54\00:13:03.14
the ultimate power and the power
00:13:03.18\00:13:05.88
that is most responsible
00:13:05.91\00:13:08.02
for things in
this world is from God
00:13:08.05\00:13:10.25
and it's the
principle of His kingdom.
00:13:10.29\00:13:14.19
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:14.22\00:13:16.86