Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Dr. John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000295A
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00:22 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is the program bringing you discussions, news, views, 00:27 up-to-date analysis 00:28 and information on religious liberty. 00:31 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine 00:34 and my guest on this program is Dr. John Graz. 00:37 Welcome, John. 00:39 Pleasure to be with you, Lincoln. 00:40 Always a pleasure to talk, talk again with you. 00:42 We have at times a very close working relationship. 00:45 But to get you in front of the camera 00:47 is often Revelation. 00:52 Just for our viewers you've had 00:54 several positions simultaneously 00:57 but you've been leading out Seventh-day 00:59 Adventist church religious liberty program for 20 years. 01:02 And sadly you're going to move on to I don't know about 01:06 Greener but different pastors more European pastors 01:09 going back to your homeland right? 01:12 Yeah. There's change in the air. 01:15 Not just in your personal situation but, 01:18 you know, if you look around there's all sorts 01:20 of political and social shifts 01:23 and to me one of the most dramatic and historically 01:27 without president events soon to take place before the end 01:30 of 2015 the Pope of Rome, present Pope of Rome, 01:36 Pope Francis has been schedule 01:39 to address the joint house of Congress. 01:43 There's no precedent on that that I can find. 01:46 The nearest was an invitation 01:49 fairly recently for the Dalai Lama 01:51 to address the joint houses of Congress 01:53 and there's such a political firestorm 01:55 that the request was withdrawn. 01:58 In the end they let him have an opening prayer 02:00 which is certainly not that politically significant. 02:04 But what do you make of this? 02:05 Do you see it as a historically significant moment? 02:10 Oh, of course you know I think that you cannot even imagine 02:15 something like that 50 years ago 02:17 and it shows that how the world has changed. 02:21 You know in today it was welcome, you know, 02:23 when the news came people said, "Oh, that's fabulous. 02:26 We'll have a very popular pope speaking and probably 02:30 he will help us to see what is important in the world today." 02:34 It shows so at which point, you know, 02:38 the image of the Pope of Rome 02:41 has become very positively managed. 02:44 What you said is very significant and I picked it up. 02:47 You know he's free to say whatever he wants obviously 02:50 no one's dictating to him. 02:52 But his influence is so great at the moment that he-- 02:55 what he says will set the agenda. 02:58 Whatever he chooses us to share. 02:59 Like the other day he made a comment or issued a document 03:02 on global warming confirming it. 03:05 And I heard the commentators and the scientists exalting. 03:07 I said the one's on this views say we've be pushing this 03:10 for years people haven't noticed. 03:12 Now, the pope's behind it, it will go. 03:15 Why, he's not a scientist? 03:17 You know, which is interesting because what he said 03:19 is most of the time very interesting. 03:22 I should say it is in the right side of human right. 03:26 Oh, it's not necessarily 03:28 anything wrong with these statements. 03:29 It's something that we even don't expect, you know, 03:31 from a leader like the pope. 03:33 He is pushing on the right side, 03:35 he's pushing for more justice for and so on and so on. 03:38 But at the same time it will incur-- increase the influence 03:43 of his institution and what it represents. 03:47 You know, he will become more and more popular 03:50 and that is the other side. 03:52 Historically significant. 03:54 Now, you know with Liberty Magazine I mean, 03:56 this is a discussion that you and I have 03:58 and others on this program about religious liberty issues. 04:02 We can be a little more free willing. 04:04 In the magazine I've got be careful because I can't use 04:07 Liberty Magazine to take potshots at activities 04:10 or beliefs of other, 04:13 other churches only as they affect their attitude 04:16 on religious freedom. 04:18 But the thing that I say all the time about Rome 04:20 which I wish more people understood in the United States 04:24 where we have the First Amendment 04:26 separation of church and state 04:28 the bishop of Rome is inherently 04:33 may be not a threat that's a strong word 04:34 but he's a dissident element because here 04:37 he's the head of a church and the head of a state. 04:40 So for him to be addressing congress in itself 04:45 they can let whoever they want to talk 04:47 but to give him such credence 04:49 is almost profane for the civil state. 04:53 It's dedicated to one end 04:54 and yet they're looking to advice 04:56 from a chameleon system that can flip-flop. 05:01 I think that's very troubling to me. 05:02 I don't know if he is-- and that would be interesting 05:04 to see if all the country will invite him to speak-- 05:07 I don't think so. 05:08 In during the assembly or national assembly 05:11 or Congresses and so on but, you know, 05:14 I think he's invited like a leader of a country 05:17 but it's mainly a moral leader. 05:19 You know someone who has the courage 05:22 to defend correct or right causes. 05:25 And about religious freedom 05:27 I will like to see all the other religious leaders 05:29 be strong as he is defending 05:32 religious freedom especially Christians. 05:33 Well, in that you put your finger 05:35 on part of the problem. 05:36 His rise to dominance might be calculated, you know, 05:39 there's many things to feed that. 05:41 But it also undisclosed what Senator Santorum said 05:45 about Protestants in America. 05:46 He said, "Protestantism is absent." 05:48 We really don't see other religious leaders rising to be 05:52 tarring moral figures and they should or could. 05:55 You see the problem you know, that was the same thing about 05:58 the Supreme Court member you know people say, 06:01 "Look, there are so many Catholics." 06:03 But my question is what about the Protestants? 06:07 Where are they? 06:08 Where are they today in America? 06:11 Also you know-- what you have also to understand is 06:14 in the world today when you have strong united organization 06:20 it gives you many advantages. 06:22 You are more visible. 06:23 But the Protestants are so much divided. 06:26 Nobody represents the Protestants. 06:28 And a part of the Protestants also don't know really 06:32 where they stand today or where are we exactly? 06:36 That's a failure of principle. 06:38 But, you know, and you made a comment I just need 06:39 to follow up with it in case people misunderstand. 06:42 I mean, your comment was fine. 06:44 But you know six out of nine Supreme Court justices 06:46 are Roman Catholic. 06:48 I think that's socially very-- 06:49 sociologically very significant. 06:52 It's not constitutionally problematic whatsoever. 06:56 They have every right to be there 06:57 and the constitution as people don't think about it. 07:01 The only two religious clause-- 07:03 religion clauses in the constitution 07:04 are the half of the First Amendment 07:07 and one other clause that says 07:08 no religious test for public office. 07:11 So in itself it's a vindication 07:12 of the openness of the American system. 07:15 But it does illustrate what is not by chance 07:19 because of disarray among other religious groups 07:21 and by calculated encouragement to catholic involvement 07:26 in politics we see the payoff. 07:28 A very high representation not just on the Supreme Court 07:31 in the House of Representatives too. 07:33 Yeah. Yeah. 07:34 Do you know I agree with that and especially to see 07:38 the state of the Protestant world? 07:40 You know, if you did not have today the evangelicals 07:44 including the Pentecostal 07:46 and so on Protestants will disappear. 07:49 The protestant will disappear as really 07:52 as a force of initiative creativity, you know, 07:55 as a leading force in a matter of civil rights 07:59 and human rights and so on. 08:01 Where are they? Where are they? 08:03 And the evangelicals are also so divided that they disappear 08:10 when it comes to be represented. 08:12 Who will represent them? 08:14 They are growing its true but who is the evangelical voice? 08:19 You know-- And even if they have-- 08:21 And Rome has a strong structure there is one leader. 08:25 But even if they have a voice what are they saying? 08:27 Is it a clear message? Not always. 08:29 Yeah, and also they contradict each other. 08:31 It means we're, you know, 08:33 we are the world has to change again. 08:36 And that's for my point of view I remember once we had meeting 08:40 with all those religious leaders. 08:42 And during a few minutes we were among Protestants 08:46 and some said, "But, you know, the Protestants 08:49 have still something to say, to share in the world today." 08:52 And I said, "Yes, why we should not have the kind of, you know, 08:57 the voice of the Protestants together or some, 09:00 "and I got the reaction, strange reaction from leaders 09:05 saying that but why we should do that. 09:08 And some others say, "We are no longer Protestants." 09:10 They feel the protest is over. Yeah. 09:12 Yeah. Yeah. 09:13 Protestants mean protest we are no longer protesting 09:15 that's a negative word. 09:16 The mind this is the situation. 09:19 It means a totally divided world. 09:22 Powerful, if we put them together 09:24 but they are not able to be together. 09:26 Then you have a voice who represent 09:28 1.2 or 1.3 billion believers and authorities 09:34 and you know when now you are 09:36 working at the government level 09:38 or the media level from one side 09:40 you have a multitude of things 09:42 you don't know what happen, who agree with me-- 09:44 Contradicting views. Contradicting. 09:46 The other side you have a well organized leader, 09:49 religious leader and of course you will ask him, 09:52 what do you think? 09:53 And at the end these leaders would speak for 09:55 all the Christian community 09:57 and may be want there for all the believers. 09:59 Yeah, yeah. 10:01 Now, its-- the dynamic is overwhelming 10:03 and we've seen it happen in before our eyes. 10:08 I'm sure you've been aware and picked up information about 10:12 developing move in Europe. 10:14 That's been discussed at say 10:16 for at least four or five years now 10:20 encouraging civil societies 10:22 toward a family day of rest. 10:23 Yeah? 10:25 Oh, yeah, that would be you know also-- 10:27 May be you know more recently but the last thing I heard 10:28 in Europe it was before the European parliament. 10:30 Did they ever adopt it? 10:32 No, that's still in process and we are following that. 10:35 I have several colleagues there attending meetings and so on. 10:39 You know at the beginning we tend to say 10:41 that it's just little things. 10:42 But now it's, it's becoming more consistent. 10:46 And for my point of view it is a kind of control wall. 10:53 You know in America you have a cont-- still a control wall 10:55 between conservatives and may be 10:57 what we call liberals and so on. 10:59 And you have some issues which are really the point 11:03 where their voice is strong. 11:05 Creation, well say evolution and so on and-- 11:10 Birth control or abortion. 11:11 Yeah, birth controls and many, many points where you know 11:15 you have still the wall. 11:16 In Europe the wall is no longer. 11:18 You know, I should say that conservative's side 11:21 or Christian's side have lost the wall, lost the wall. 11:25 It's a very secularized world. 11:27 But you know Sunday gives a possibility to people to have 11:30 another good issue to say, "Hey, we are here. 11:33 We are still here." Yes. 11:35 I agree with you. 11:36 And its not-- this suggestion which is a law in Germany 11:42 as I remember and Croatia I think 11:45 but not yet for the European community as a whole. 11:48 But it presents itself as purely secular. 11:50 Yeah, purely secular. And it has certain advantages. 11:53 To me it's got the same sort of argument 11:55 in favor like daylight saving. 11:57 There's energy saving. 11:58 There's community resources are saved. 12:01 There's spiritual regeneration of the worker 12:03 and strengthening of the family. 12:06 Spiritual uplift by encouraging people of faith 12:09 to go to Church. 12:11 Doesn't say you have to go to church. 12:12 But put together of course on Sunday which is logical 12:15 but also it is highly charged on a religious basis. 12:19 Because the religions are in favor. 12:21 Yeah. They are pushing it. 12:23 Given that we have a work week and a weekend 12:26 it's not mystery why it settled on Sunday. 12:28 But put together its sort of a thing 12:30 you cant speak against 12:31 or you're sort of against human kind you're against 12:33 the betterment of the society because its rejecting 12:37 the commercialization and so on and in total its-- 12:43 Well, that is something-- 12:44 I think something that I think 12:45 we can't easily say, "I'm against it." 12:47 Yeah, we shall come back to it because that's the point. 12:50 We are running short on time so stay with us 12:52 I want to carry this till we come back 12:54 on this family rest day 12:57 and when we might hear of it again. |
Revised 2015-08-20