Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is the program bringing
you discussions, news, views,
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up-to-date analysis
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and information
on religious liberty.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on this
program is Dr. John Graz.
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Welcome, John.
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Pleasure to be
with you, Lincoln.
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Always a pleasure to
talk, talk again with you.
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We have at times a very
close working relationship.
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But to get you in
front of the camera
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is often Revelation.
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Just for our viewers you've had
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several positions simultaneously
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but you've been
leading out Seventh-day
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Adventist church religious
liberty program for 20 years.
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And sadly you're going to
move on to I don't know about
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Greener but different
pastors more European pastors
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going back to
your homeland right?
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Yeah. There's change in the air.
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Not just in your
personal situation but,
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you know, if you look
around there's all sorts
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of political and social shifts
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and to me one of the
most dramatic and historically
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without president events soon
to take place before the end
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of 2015 the Pope of
Rome, present Pope of Rome,
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Pope Francis has been schedule
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to address the
joint house of Congress.
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There's no precedent
on that that I can find.
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The nearest was an invitation
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fairly recently
for the Dalai Lama
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to address the
joint houses of Congress
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and there's such a
political firestorm
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that the request was withdrawn.
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In the end they let
him have an opening prayer
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which is certainly not
that politically significant.
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But what do you make of this?
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Do you see it as a
historically significant moment?
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Oh, of course you know I think
that you cannot even imagine
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something like that 50 years ago
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and it shows that how
the world has changed.
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You know in today it
was welcome, you know,
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when the news came people
said, "Oh, that's fabulous.
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We'll have a very popular
pope speaking and probably
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he will help us to see what is
important in the world today."
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It shows so at
which point, you know,
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the image of the Pope of Rome
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has become very
positively managed.
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What you said is very
significant and I picked it up.
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You know he's free to say
whatever he wants obviously
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no one's dictating to him.
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But his influence is so
great at the moment that he--
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what he says
will set the agenda.
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Whatever he chooses us to share.
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Like the other day he made
a comment or issued a document
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on global warming confirming it.
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And I heard the commentators
and the scientists exalting.
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I said the one's on this
views say we've be pushing this
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for years
people haven't noticed.
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Now, the pope's
behind it, it will go.
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Why, he's not a scientist?
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You know, which is
interesting because what he said
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is most of the
time very interesting.
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I should say it is in the
right side of human right.
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Oh, it's not necessarily
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anything wrong
with these statements.
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It's something that we
even don't expect, you know,
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from a leader like the pope.
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He is pushing on the right side,
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he's pushing for more
justice for and so on and so on.
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But at the same time it will
incur-- increase the influence
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of his institution
and what it represents.
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You know, he will
become more and more popular
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and that is the other side.
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Historically significant.
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Now, you know with
Liberty Magazine I mean,
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this is a
discussion that you and I have
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and others on this program
about religious liberty issues.
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We can be a
little more free willing.
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In the magazine I've got
be careful because I can't use
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Liberty Magazine to
take potshots at activities
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or beliefs of other,
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other churches only as
they affect their attitude
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on religious freedom.
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But the thing that I
say all the time about Rome
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which I wish more people
understood in the United States
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where we have
the First Amendment
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separation of church and state
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the bishop of Rome is inherently
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may be not a threat
that's a strong word
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but he's a
dissident element because here
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he's the head of a
church and the head of a state.
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So for him to be
addressing congress in itself
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they can let
whoever they want to talk
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but to give him such credence
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is almost profane
for the civil state.
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It's dedicated to one end
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and yet they're
looking to advice
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from a chameleon
system that can flip-flop.
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I think that's
very troubling to me.
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I don't know if he is--
and that would be interesting
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to see if all the country
will invite him to speak--
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I don't think so.
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In during the
assembly or national assembly
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or Congresses and
so on but, you know,
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I think he's invited
like a leader of a country
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but it's mainly a moral leader.
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You know someone
who has the courage
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to defend
correct or right causes.
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And about religious freedom
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I will like to see all
the other religious leaders
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be strong as he is defending
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religious freedom
especially Christians.
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Well, in that
you put your finger
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on part of the problem.
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His rise to dominance
might be calculated, you know,
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there's many
things to feed that.
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But it also undisclosed
what Senator Santorum said
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about Protestants in America.
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He said,
"Protestantism is absent."
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We really don't see other
religious leaders rising to be
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tarring moral figures
and they should or could.
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You see the problem you know,
that was the same thing about
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the Supreme Court
member you know people say,
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"Look, there are
so many Catholics."
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But my question is
what about the Protestants?
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Where are they?
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Where are they today in America?
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Also you know-- what you
have also to understand is
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in the world today when you
have strong united organization
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it gives you many advantages.
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You are more visible.
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But the Protestants
are so much divided.
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Nobody
represents the Protestants.
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And a part of the Protestants
also don't know really
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where they stand today
or where are we exactly?
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That's a failure of principle.
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But, you know, and you
made a comment I just need
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to follow up with it in
case people misunderstand.
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I mean, your comment was fine.
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But you know six out of
nine Supreme Court justices
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are Roman Catholic.
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I think that's socially very--
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sociologically very significant.
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It's not constitutionally
problematic whatsoever.
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They have every
right to be there
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and the constitution as
people don't think about it.
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The only two religious clause--
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religion clauses
in the constitution
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are the half of
the First Amendment
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and one other clause that says
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no religious test
for public office.
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So in itself it's a vindication
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of the openness of
the American system.
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But it does
illustrate what is not by chance
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because of disarray
among other religious groups
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and by calculated encouragement
to catholic involvement
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in politics we see the payoff.
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A very high representation
not just on the Supreme Court
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in the House of
Representatives too.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Do you know I agree with
that and especially to see
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the state of the
Protestant world?
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You know, if you did not
have today the evangelicals
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including the Pentecostal
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and so on
Protestants will disappear.
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The protestant
will disappear as really
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as a force of
initiative creativity, you know,
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as a leading force in
a matter of civil rights
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and human rights and so on.
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Where are they? Where are they?
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And the evangelicals are also
so divided that they disappear
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when it comes to be represented.
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Who will represent them?
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They are growing its true but
who is the evangelical voice?
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You know-- And
even if they have--
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And Rome has a strong
structure there is one leader.
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But even if they have a
voice what are they saying?
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Is it a clear
message? Not always.
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Yeah, and also they
contradict each other.
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It means we're, you know,
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we are the world
has to change again.
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And that's for my point of view
I remember once we had meeting
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with all those
religious leaders.
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And during a few minutes
we were among Protestants
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and some said, "But,
you know, the Protestants
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have still something to say,
to share in the world today."
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And I said, "Yes, why we should
not have the kind of, you know,
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the voice of the
Protestants together or some,
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"and I got the reaction,
strange reaction from leaders
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saying that but
why we should do that.
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And some others say, "We
are no longer Protestants."
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They feel the
protest is over. Yeah.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Protestants mean protest
we are no longer protesting
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that's a negative word.
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The mind this is the situation.
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It means a
totally divided world.
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Powerful, if we
put them together
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but they are not
able to be together.
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Then you have a
voice who represent
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1.2 or 1.3 billion
believers and authorities
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and you know when now you are
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working at the government level
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or the media level from one side
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you have a multitude of things
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you don't know what
happen, who agree with me--
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Contradicting
views. Contradicting.
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The other side you have
a well organized leader,
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religious leader and of
course you will ask him,
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what do you think?
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And at the end these
leaders would speak for
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all the Christian community
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and may be want there
for all the believers.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Now, its-- the
dynamic is overwhelming
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and we've seen it
happen in before our eyes.
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I'm sure you've been aware
and picked up information about
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developing move in Europe.
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That's been discussed at say
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for at least
four or five years now
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encouraging civil societies
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toward a family day of rest.
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Yeah?
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Oh, yeah, that
would be you know also--
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May be you know more recently
but the last thing I heard
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in Europe it was before
the European parliament.
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Did they ever adopt it?
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No, that's still in process
and we are following that.
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I have several colleagues there
attending meetings and so on.
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You know at the
beginning we tend to say
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that it's just little things.
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But now it's, it's
becoming more consistent.
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And for my point of view
it is a kind of control wall.
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You know in America you have
a cont-- still a control wall
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between conservatives and may be
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what we call liberals and so on.
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And you have some issues
which are really the point
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where their voice is strong.
00:11:03.63\00:11:05.83
Creation, well say
evolution and so on and--
00:11:05.86\00:11:10.30
Birth control or abortion.
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Yeah, birth controls and
many, many points where you know
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you have still the wall.
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In Europe the wall is no longer.
00:11:16.37\00:11:18.77
You know, I should say
that conservative's side
00:11:18.81\00:11:21.31
or Christian's side have
lost the wall, lost the wall.
00:11:21.34\00:11:25.31
It's a very secularized world.
00:11:25.35\00:11:27.15
But you know Sunday gives a
possibility to people to have
00:11:27.18\00:11:30.85
another good issue to
say, "Hey, we are here.
00:11:30.89\00:11:33.86
We are still here." Yes.
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I agree with you.
00:11:35.46\00:11:36.86
And its not-- this suggestion
which is a law in Germany
00:11:36.89\00:11:41.96
as I remember
and Croatia I think
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but not yet for the
European community as a whole.
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But it presents
itself as purely secular.
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Yeah, purely secular. And
it has certain advantages.
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To me it's got the
same sort of argument
00:11:53.71\00:11:55.24
in favor like daylight saving.
00:11:55.28\00:11:57.01
There's energy saving.
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There's community
resources are saved.
00:11:58.41\00:12:00.98
There's spiritual
regeneration of the worker
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and strengthening of the family.
00:12:03.65\00:12:06.35
Spiritual uplift by
encouraging people of faith
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to go to Church.
00:12:09.69\00:12:11.03
Doesn't say you
have to go to church.
00:12:11.06\00:12:12.73
But put together of course
on Sunday which is logical
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but also it is highly
charged on a religious basis.
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Because the
religions are in favor.
00:12:19.73\00:12:21.64
Yeah. They are pushing it.
00:12:21.67\00:12:23.71
Given that we have a
work week and a weekend
00:12:23.74\00:12:26.61
it's not mystery why
it settled on Sunday.
00:12:26.64\00:12:28.11
But put together
its sort of a thing
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you cant speak against
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or you're sort of against
human kind you're against
00:12:31.58\00:12:33.58
the betterment of the
society because its rejecting
00:12:33.62\00:12:37.19
the commercialization
and so on and in total its--
00:12:37.22\00:12:42.99
Well, that is something--
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I think something that I think
00:12:44.39\00:12:45.73
we can't easily
say, "I'm against it."
00:12:45.76\00:12:47.43
Yeah, we shall come back to
it because that's the point.
00:12:47.46\00:12:50.07
We are running short
on time so stay with us
00:12:50.10\00:12:52.47
I want to carry
this till we come back
00:12:52.50\00:12:54.90
on this family rest day
00:12:54.94\00:12:57.01
and when we
might hear of it again.
00:12:57.04\00:12:58.67