Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Dr. John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000294B
|
00:03 Welcome back to "The Liberty Insider."
00:05 Before the break, with Dr. John Graz, 00:07 we were talking about religious freedom 00:09 of course and how that relates to other churches, 00:13 how the interchurch dialogue, 00:18 you know, we can get back to a word 00:20 that we use now and then, ecumenism. 00:23 Our own church is very suspicious of ecumenism 00:27 I think because at least few decades ago 00:30 it was very self consciously 00:31 aiming at sort of merging different churches 00:35 and reaching some common denominator 00:37 which I can say 00:38 is a synchronistic religious approach. 00:41 But how do we differentiate between that downside 00:46 if you like to dialogue 00:47 and yet encourage churches to work openly together 00:52 and credit someone else 00:53 who believes radically different 00:55 with the same rights that they want? 00:56 Yeah, you know, 00:57 as I said earlier, 00:59 there is no confusion between or should 01:02 not have any confusion 01:03 between religious freedom and ecumenism. 01:06 I don't know why we are building this confusion 01:08 because it's very different. 01:10 It's not on the same level. 01:12 And now it doesn't mean that 01:13 ecumenism is in favor of religious freedom. 01:16 That's also a different but it should be. 01:18 It should be but you know, having been part of Civil-- 01:21 That's an interesting point you raised 01:23 'cause I don't, I think that's true. 01:25 I don't think the ecumenical movement 01:27 at its most aggressive, which is past. 01:29 We've actually peaked in my view. 01:32 I don't think it was very tolerant 01:33 to those that wouldn't, 01:35 that were outside the ecumenical movement. 01:37 Yeah, you are right. 01:38 That was the new idea 01:40 and they believe that was a new truth 01:42 you know, to be all you know, 01:44 how remember you know, you had two Wars 01:47 and you have a long history 01:48 of Christian fighting and killing each other 01:51 and at the end of the First War, 01:52 you know, the Christians start to say, 01:54 we have to do something. 01:56 You know, if you don't do any thing 01:57 we will have war and war between Christians 02:00 and we should do something. 02:02 And after the Second War, you know they say, 02:04 now really we have to do something concrete 02:07 and they worked with the organization 02:09 of the World Council of Churches. 02:11 And the idea was to try to have all churches together 02:15 and one day maybe that was the goal, the ideal, 02:19 that why we should not have one Christian church, 02:21 as it was in a past, at the beginning of the history. 02:25 Of course, you know, from the beginning 02:27 the Catholic Church was not member 02:29 of the World Council of Churches 02:30 and they are no longer member. 02:32 They are not member too, 02:34 even if they have a large influence. 02:37 But today as you mentioned the concept, 02:40 even the concept of ecumenism is not as it was in the past. 02:44 Now it's changed for many reasons 02:46 and from the point of the Catholic Church, 02:48 I remember not too long ago, 02:50 I've been non hazard a guess at what year. 02:52 I think I know the year but they came out 02:53 with the document called the Unicity of Salvation 02:57 and that really put the stake through their heart 02:59 I think of a grand division of ecumenism 03:02 because the Catholic Church restated its view, 03:04 which it holds and it has a right to hold it 03:07 that they are the only true church. 03:09 And that the other churches are only Christian 03:11 even as they share elements 03:13 derived from the Catholic Church. 03:14 Even the Protestant were not recognized as a church. 03:17 No, unless they have the common Eucharist which-- 03:20 And that was interesting because at this time, 03:21 you know, I had a meeting with the Christian World Communion 03:25 and we talked about that because that was interesting 03:28 because before this document, you know, it was really well 03:32 accepted in ecumenical world 03:34 that no church should say we have the truth. 03:37 No church because, you know, if you'll say that 03:40 you are not nice for the other. 03:42 It means you should say-- 03:44 They were trying to reach a low common denominator. 03:45 We have all truths, 03:46 we have a partial truths and so on. 03:48 I know, you know, certainly the largest one said, 03:52 hey, don't forget those who are, 03:55 because that was also a message 03:56 to those who were involved in ecumenism. 03:59 They don't forget you, 04:01 you are involved in ecumenism, don't forget. 04:03 There is one church, one true church. 04:05 It is our church. 04:06 And I read several things that had happened, 04:08 not least that the Roman Catholic hierarchy, 04:11 I think it determined that ecumenism was going nowhere, 04:14 that they could now dictate to the member. 04:16 And you had also some quotations 04:19 we can mention you know, 04:20 where people looking what's going on 04:23 said that the real unity will come 04:25 when Jesus come back, 04:27 when Jesus return you know, at this time 04:30 you will have one church, the Church of God. 04:33 It means the idea of having one organic church. 04:36 It is no longer you know, 04:38 people say that's not realistic. 04:40 Secondly, as long as you will have freedom, 04:43 how you can force people to be one. 04:45 It's already so difficult for one little church 04:49 to keep their people together. 04:51 You can imagine now you have 2 or 3,000 04:54 religious organization. 04:56 And I remember a good friend of mine, 04:58 you know, he said that, 05:00 you know, we want to have unity among all Christian, 05:04 I can assure you, in my own church 05:06 it's so difficult to have unity. 05:09 It means, you know, it will happen, 05:12 the only way it happen 05:14 when church and state will be united. 05:16 Well, yes. 05:17 And that's what I was about to say. 05:19 This form of it is passe but a closer identification 05:24 in many different separate countries 05:26 between a certain faith and the power of the state. 05:29 That is developing rapidly. 05:31 I see it's going back to that very quick. 05:32 And at this time, you know, 05:34 the question is not try to be nice together, 05:37 try to have just one, 05:38 but the question will be for the power of the country. 05:43 For having a strong country, we need to be one, 05:46 you know, as the king said, 05:48 one king, one church, one faith, one God and we-- 05:53 That's how it started. 05:54 Remember, Clovis, 05:56 Clovis of the Franks was baptized Christian, 05:58 the French were all Christians. 06:01 The czar in the year 1000 was baptized Christian, 06:05 all of Russia becomes Christian. 06:07 But that model went long ago 06:11 but I think in some ways in some, 06:12 many countries it's coming back. 06:14 And, you know, it's also a question of 06:18 how to be strong you know. 06:21 Countries where they want to be strong 06:24 and they have more and more challenges, 06:26 how you can resist if your people are not united. 06:30 But the question is 06:32 at which level the people has to be united. 06:34 That is all the question. 06:36 If you say that should be united 06:38 having just one religion, I would say, yes. 06:40 But what happened for those 06:42 who don't have the same religion. 06:43 It has to be united at another level, 06:47 you know, a level of what you believe as a country. 06:50 It means you can have different religion 06:52 but still be united 06:55 as a citizen of the same country. 06:56 As long as it's felt that those by the state 06:58 that those divergent religions are loyal to the state 07:01 and there is the problem 07:02 because in England at different times they felt 07:04 that Catholics and Jews 07:06 were not compatible with the societal state aims. 07:11 And this is why you know, 07:12 when we talk about separation of church and the state. 07:14 First it means that there is no hostility from the state. 07:17 That's why I think it's the safest model. 07:19 And the other side there is no tentative, 07:22 political tentatives from the churches 07:25 to destabilize the state 07:28 because you enter in a circle 07:31 which will produce really bad results. 07:36 Yeah. Yeah. 07:37 Now the more over 07:38 I talk with you on this on another programs. 07:41 I see that history in forms the present. 07:43 You look to the past and you see these models 07:45 and some are repeating, some are not 07:48 but they are object lessons from the past. 07:50 And there's a lot of work to be done 07:55 on this principle involving the churches. 07:59 You and I dedicated 08:00 the separation of church and state concept 08:02 but it's with the churches that have were mostly devolves. 08:05 The antagonisms are within or between different churches. 08:09 The state normally doesn't have an opinion on this. 08:12 No, they should not here. 08:13 They let people have their different 08:15 you know, it's the same 08:17 when you have the political model you know. 08:19 Let people have different ideas. 08:21 You know, as long as you agree on the constitution 08:25 and as you said you know, history, 08:27 we have always to look back to history. 08:30 What happened in history? 08:31 Thousand years of religious persecution 08:34 that you know, when we have religious freedom 08:36 it's really a very new concept. 08:38 New and they're short-lived. 08:39 New and short-lived. 08:41 It means we have it today, not everywhere 08:44 but we can lose it. 08:46 And that's why it's so important 08:48 to maintain this value 08:49 and saying that it is the key of a democratic society, 08:53 it is the key of human rights. 08:55 We don't have much time left. 08:57 Maybe we can enlarge on it in another topic 08:59 but I'd be interested in you. 09:01 What do you think began 09:04 the modern concept religiously but what's its origin? 09:09 I mean its root is in Christ 09:11 and the principles of His kingdom. 09:13 But in development among human beings 09:16 clinically is a relative? 09:17 You know, you had this concept already. 09:19 You know, the king of Persia recognizing that you know, 09:23 every country could have different religion. 09:25 That's sort of pluralist viewpoint. 09:28 But the clearly enunciated view that we have now 09:32 'cause it's quite complex. 09:33 Yeah, it's quite complex. Where did that come from? 09:34 Because it has the dimension of, 09:36 you have the right to change your religion 09:39 and the religion should not be imposed. 09:41 You know, the concept of having one religion here, 09:45 another religion here and different territory, 09:49 different religion was accepted 09:51 when you had The Treaty of Versailles 09:53 you know, at the end of the religious war 09:56 because we cannot exterminate you-- 09:58 That's been linked to the beginning of the modern, 10:01 the modern state. 10:03 But after you know, 10:04 it's the conquest about human rights 10:06 but you had all the history you know as I said, 10:09 the first who used really religious freedom 10:12 was Tertullian. 10:14 He mentioned religious freedom, the Christian were persecuted 10:17 and he mentioned also the separation 10:19 between church and state. 10:20 He said the state should not persecute people 10:23 because they have different religion 10:25 and which was interesting is during the time of the Roman, 10:29 you know, they had a lot of different religion 10:31 and they were not persecuted 10:33 but the problem with the Christians, 10:35 the Christians say there is just one true religion. 10:38 Right, and well it wasn't just the Christianity. 10:42 There was a comment made about the Jews 10:44 that of all peoples 10:45 they despise the ancient religions. 10:48 They had an antipathy to other religions 10:51 and with Rome, 10:52 yeah, the Christians disavowed the emperors' gods, 10:57 not just, I think we've limited it too much. 11:00 We saw a lot of history books 11:01 give the idea it was emperor worship. 11:04 But that's when it reached its peak 11:06 but in reality, they were the favored gods of the empire 11:09 and Christians looked down on them, so by extension-- 11:11 And they refused, they refused to 11:14 just to give at least one or two, 11:18 you know, sermon or agreement 11:22 or I don't know just to pay tribute. 11:24 Paul spoke about food offered to idols 11:27 and even we think of that just in the temple 11:30 that very likely meant 11:32 any meat shop or butcher's shop, 11:35 he was selling food 11:37 that have been ritually blessed by the pagan priest. 11:39 So you couldn't easily buy it from a retail outlet. 11:42 You know, Lincoln, very often we believe that 11:46 religious freedom will be strong 11:47 because you now religious people defending it. 11:51 I think that everyone can be in favor or against. 11:55 It's just a matter of understanding. 11:57 It's not because you are religious man or woman 12:00 that you will defend religious freedom for other. 12:04 You defend religious freedom really 12:06 because you believe that it's part of the gift from God. 12:09 And this is what we are doing. 12:11 Religious freedom is a gift from God. 12:13 This is why we defend it. 12:17 Over the years as someone coming from Australia, 12:20 I've traveled back there, initially with my parents 12:23 and then in my own camp with my own children. 12:27 But some of the most poignant moments 12:29 have been leaving Australia 12:31 after those visits and on a number of occasions 12:33 I remember gathering around and holding hands 12:36 and singing the song, 12:37 "Blessed be the tie that binds." 12:40 There's no question that no matter the country, 12:43 never matter the geographical occasion, 12:46 Christians have a common bond. 12:49 We can try to write 12:50 that large into different Christian communities, 12:53 and yet often we're divided 12:55 by different understandings of God. 12:57 The trick if there is to be a word 12:59 that you could use like that, 13:01 is that this common fellowship of belief 13:05 and in fact, that common search for the divine should give us 13:09 a common tie that binds even though it cannot erase 13:14 very real differences in how we describe God. 13:17 The genius I think of religious liberty 13:20 is it is a common denominator 13:22 that binds us to a principle of God and us as His creation, 13:27 that we have the right 13:28 to choose to worship Him freely. 13:31 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-08-13