Welcome back to
"The Liberty Insider."
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Before the break,
with Dr. John Graz,
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we were talking
about religious freedom
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of course and how that
relates to other churches,
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how the interchurch dialogue,
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you know, we can
get back to a word
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that we use now
and then, ecumenism.
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Our own church is very
suspicious of ecumenism
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I think because at
least few decades ago
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it was very self consciously
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aiming at sort of
merging different churches
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and reaching some
common denominator
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which I can say
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is a synchronistic
religious approach.
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But how do we differentiate
between that downside
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if you like to dialogue
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and yet encourage
churches to work openly together
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and credit someone else
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who believes radically different
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with the same
rights that they want?
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Yeah, you know,
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as I said earlier,
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there is no
confusion between or should
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not have any confusion
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between religious
freedom and ecumenism.
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I don't know why we
are building this confusion
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because it's very different.
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It's not on the same level.
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And now it doesn't mean that
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ecumenism is in
favor of religious freedom.
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That's also a
different but it should be.
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It should be but you know,
having been part of Civil--
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That's an
interesting point you raised
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'cause I don't, I
think that's true.
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I don't think the
ecumenical movement
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at its most
aggressive, which is past.
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We've actually
peaked in my view.
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I don't think it
was very tolerant
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to those that wouldn't,
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that were outside
the ecumenical movement.
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Yeah, you are right.
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That was the new idea
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and they believe
that was a new truth
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you know, to be all you know,
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how remember you
know, you had two Wars
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and you have a long history
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of Christian fighting
and killing each other
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and at the end of the First War,
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you know, the
Christians start to say,
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we have to do something.
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You know, if you
don't do any thing
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we will have war and
war between Christians
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and we should do something.
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And after the Second
War, you know they say,
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now really we have
to do something concrete
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and they worked
with the organization
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of the World
Council of Churches.
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And the idea was to try
to have all churches together
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and one day maybe that
was the goal, the ideal,
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that why we should not
have one Christian church,
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as it was in a past, at
the beginning of the history.
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Of course, you
know, from the beginning
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the Catholic
Church was not member
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of the World Council of Churches
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and they are no longer member.
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They are not member too,
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even if they have
a large influence.
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But today as you
mentioned the concept,
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even the concept of ecumenism
is not as it was in the past.
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Now it's
changed for many reasons
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and from the point
of the Catholic Church,
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I remember not too long ago,
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I've been non hazard
a guess at what year.
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I think I know the
year but they came out
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with the document
called the Unicity of Salvation
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and that really put the
stake through their heart
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I think of a grand
division of ecumenism
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because the Catholic
Church restated its view,
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which it holds and it
has a right to hold it
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that they are
the only true church.
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And that the other
churches are only Christian
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even as they share elements
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derived from
the Catholic Church.
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Even the Protestant were
not recognized as a church.
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No, unless they have
the common Eucharist which--
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And that was interesting
because at this time,
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you know, I had a meeting with
the Christian World Communion
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and we talked about that
because that was interesting
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because before this document,
you know, it was really well
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accepted in ecumenical world
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that no church should
say we have the truth.
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No church because, you
know, if you'll say that
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you are not nice for the other.
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It means you should say--
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They were trying to
reach a low common denominator.
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We have all truths,
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we have a
partial truths and so on.
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I know, you know,
certainly the largest one said,
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hey, don't forget those who are,
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because that was also a message
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to those who were
involved in ecumenism.
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They don't forget you,
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you are involved in
ecumenism, don't forget.
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There is one
church, one true church.
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It is our church.
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And I read several
things that had happened,
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not least that the
Roman Catholic hierarchy,
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I think it determined that
ecumenism was going nowhere,
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that they could now
dictate to the member.
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And you had also some quotations
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we can mention you know,
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where people
looking what's going on
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said that the
real unity will come
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when Jesus come back,
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when Jesus return
you know, at this time
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you will have one
church, the Church of God.
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It means the idea of
having one organic church.
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It is no longer you know,
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people say that's not realistic.
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Secondly, as long as
you will have freedom,
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how you can
force people to be one.
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It's already so
difficult for one little church
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to keep their people together.
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You can imagine
now you have 2 or 3,000
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religious organization.
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And I remember a
good friend of mine,
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you know, he said that,
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you know, we want to have
unity among all Christian,
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I can assure
you, in my own church
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it's so difficult to have unity.
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It means, you
know, it will happen,
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the only way it happen
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when church and
state will be united.
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Well, yes.
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And that's what
I was about to say.
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This form of it is passe
but a closer identification
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in many different
separate countries
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between a certain faith
and the power of the state.
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That is developing rapidly.
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I see it's going
back to that very quick.
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And at this time, you know,
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the question is not
try to be nice together,
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try to have just one,
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but the question will be
for the power of the country.
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For having a strong
country, we need to be one,
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you know, as the king said,
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one king, one church,
one faith, one God and we--
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That's how it started.
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Remember, Clovis,
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Clovis of the Franks
was baptized Christian,
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the French were all Christians.
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The czar in the year
1000 was baptized Christian,
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all of Russia becomes Christian.
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But that model went long ago
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but I think in
some ways in some,
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many countries it's coming back.
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And, you know,
it's also a question of
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how to be strong you know.
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Countries where
they want to be strong
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and they have more
and more challenges,
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how you can resist if
your people are not united.
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But the question is
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at which level the
people has to be united.
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That is all the question.
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If you say that should be united
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having just one
religion, I would say, yes.
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But what happened for those
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who don't have
the same religion.
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It has to be
united at another level,
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you know, a level of
what you believe as a country.
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It means you can
have different religion
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but still be united
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as a citizen of
the same country.
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As long as it's felt
that those by the state
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that those divergent
religions are loyal to the state
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and there is the problem
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because in England at
different times they felt
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that Catholics and Jews
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were not compatible
with the societal state aims.
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And this is why you know,
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when we talk about separation
of church and the state.
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First it means that there
is no hostility from the state.
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That's why I think
it's the safest model.
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And the other side
there is no tentative,
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political
tentatives from the churches
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to destabilize the state
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because you enter in a circle
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which will produce
really bad results.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Now the more over
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I talk with you on
this on another programs.
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I see that history
in forms the present.
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You look to the past
and you see these models
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and some are
repeating, some are not
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but they are object
lessons from the past.
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And there's a lot
of work to be done
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on this principle
involving the churches.
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You and I dedicated
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the separation of
church and state concept
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but it's with the churches
that have were mostly devolves.
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The antagonisms are within
or between different churches.
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The state normally
doesn't have an opinion on this.
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No, they should not here.
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They let people
have their different
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you know, it's the same
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when you have the
political model you know.
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Let people have different ideas.
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You know, as long as you
agree on the constitution
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and as you said
you know, history,
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we have always to
look back to history.
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What happened in history?
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Thousand years of
religious persecution
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that you know, when
we have religious freedom
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it's really a very new concept.
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New and they're short-lived.
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New and short-lived.
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It means we have it
today, not everywhere
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but we can lose it.
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And that's why it's so important
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to maintain this value
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and saying that it is the
key of a democratic society,
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it is the key of human rights.
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We don't have much time left.
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Maybe we can enlarge
on it in another topic
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but I'd be interested in you.
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What do you think began
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the modern concept religiously
but what's its origin?
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I mean its root is in Christ
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and the
principles of His kingdom.
00:09:11.51\00:09:13.18
But in
development among human beings
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clinically is a relative?
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You know, you had
this concept already.
00:09:17.82\00:09:19.39
You know, the king of Persia
recognizing that you know,
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every country could
have different religion.
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That's sort of
pluralist viewpoint.
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But the clearly
enunciated view that we have now
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'cause it's quite complex.
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Yeah, it's quite complex.
Where did that come from?
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Because it has the dimension of,
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you have the right
to change your religion
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and the religion
should not be imposed.
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You know, the concept of
having one religion here,
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another religion here
and different territory,
00:09:45.98\00:09:49.05
different religion was accepted
00:09:49.08\00:09:51.22
when you had The
Treaty of Versailles
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you know, at the
end of the religious war
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because we
cannot exterminate you--
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That's been linked to
the beginning of the modern,
00:09:58.56\00:10:01.76
the modern state.
00:10:01.80\00:10:03.13
But after you know,
00:10:03.16\00:10:04.50
it's the conquest
about human rights
00:10:04.53\00:10:06.23
but you had all the
history you know as I said,
00:10:06.27\00:10:09.67
the first who used
really religious freedom
00:10:09.70\00:10:12.64
was Tertullian.
00:10:12.67\00:10:14.01
He mentioned religious freedom,
the Christian were persecuted
00:10:14.04\00:10:17.61
and he mentioned
also the separation
00:10:17.65\00:10:19.51
between church and state.
00:10:19.55\00:10:20.88
He said the state
should not persecute people
00:10:20.92\00:10:23.35
because they have
different religion
00:10:23.39\00:10:25.55
and which was interesting is
during the time of the Roman,
00:10:25.59\00:10:29.69
you know, they had a
lot of different religion
00:10:29.72\00:10:31.73
and they were not persecuted
00:10:31.76\00:10:33.56
but the problem
with the Christians,
00:10:33.60\00:10:35.83
the Christians say there
is just one true religion.
00:10:35.86\00:10:38.73
Right, and well it
wasn't just the Christianity.
00:10:38.77\00:10:42.44
There was a
comment made about the Jews
00:10:42.47\00:10:44.31
that of all peoples
00:10:44.34\00:10:45.71
they despise the
ancient religions.
00:10:45.74\00:10:48.21
They had an
antipathy to other religions
00:10:48.24\00:10:50.98
and with Rome,
00:10:51.01\00:10:52.58
yeah, the Christians
disavowed the emperors' gods,
00:10:52.61\00:10:57.85
not just, I think
we've limited it too much.
00:10:57.89\00:11:00.09
We saw a lot of history books
00:11:00.12\00:11:01.86
give the idea it
was emperor worship.
00:11:01.89\00:11:04.63
But that's when
it reached its peak
00:11:04.66\00:11:05.99
but in reality, they were
the favored gods of the empire
00:11:06.03\00:11:09.46
and Christians looked
down on them, so by extension--
00:11:09.50\00:11:11.43
And they
refused, they refused to
00:11:11.47\00:11:14.57
just to give at
least one or two,
00:11:14.60\00:11:18.74
you know, sermon or agreement
00:11:18.77\00:11:22.38
or I don't know
just to pay tribute.
00:11:22.41\00:11:24.31
Paul spoke about
food offered to idols
00:11:24.35\00:11:27.28
and even we think of
that just in the temple
00:11:27.32\00:11:30.89
that very likely meant
00:11:30.92\00:11:32.29
any meat shop or butcher's shop,
00:11:32.32\00:11:35.89
he was selling food
00:11:35.92\00:11:37.26
that have been ritually
blessed by the pagan priest.
00:11:37.29\00:11:39.66
So you couldn't easily
buy it from a retail outlet.
00:11:39.69\00:11:42.80
You know, Lincoln,
very often we believe that
00:11:42.83\00:11:46.17
religious freedom will be strong
00:11:46.20\00:11:47.90
because you now
religious people defending it.
00:11:47.94\00:11:51.81
I think that everyone
can be in favor or against.
00:11:51.84\00:11:55.74
It's just a
matter of understanding.
00:11:55.78\00:11:57.91
It's not because you
are religious man or woman
00:11:57.95\00:12:00.68
that you will defend
religious freedom for other.
00:12:00.72\00:12:03.99
You defend
religious freedom really
00:12:04.02\00:12:06.15
because you believe that
it's part of the gift from God.
00:12:06.19\00:12:09.39
And this is what we are doing.
00:12:09.42\00:12:11.09
Religious freedom
is a gift from God.
00:12:11.13\00:12:13.23
This is why we defend it.
00:12:13.26\00:12:14.60
Over the years as
someone coming from Australia,
00:12:17.43\00:12:20.80
I've traveled back
there, initially with my parents
00:12:20.84\00:12:23.10
and then in my own
camp with my own children.
00:12:23.14\00:12:27.18
But some of the
most poignant moments
00:12:27.21\00:12:29.34
have been leaving Australia
00:12:29.38\00:12:31.41
after those visits and
on a number of occasions
00:12:31.45\00:12:33.92
I remember gathering
around and holding hands
00:12:33.95\00:12:36.22
and singing the song,
00:12:36.25\00:12:37.79
"Blessed be the tie that binds."
00:12:37.82\00:12:40.52
There's no question
that no matter the country,
00:12:40.56\00:12:43.06
never matter the
geographical occasion,
00:12:43.09\00:12:46.46
Christians have a common bond.
00:12:46.49\00:12:49.06
We can try to write
00:12:49.10\00:12:50.43
that large into
different Christian communities,
00:12:50.47\00:12:53.20
and yet often we're divided
00:12:53.23\00:12:55.00
by different
understandings of God.
00:12:55.04\00:12:57.61
The trick if
there is to be a word
00:12:57.64\00:12:59.94
that you could use like that,
00:12:59.97\00:13:01.61
is that this common
fellowship of belief
00:13:01.64\00:13:05.11
and in fact, that common search
for the divine should give us
00:13:05.15\00:13:09.18
a common tie that binds
even though it cannot erase
00:13:09.22\00:13:14.29
very real differences
in how we describe God.
00:13:14.32\00:13:17.63
The genius I think
of religious liberty
00:13:17.66\00:13:20.00
is it is a common denominator
00:13:20.03\00:13:22.23
that binds us to a principle
of God and us as His creation,
00:13:22.26\00:13:26.97
that we have the right
00:13:27.00\00:13:28.34
to choose to worship Him freely.
00:13:28.37\00:13:31.41
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:31.44\00:13:34.18