Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Dr. John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000294A
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00:21 Welcome to "The Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is the program bringing you news, views, 00:26 discussions, analysis and up-to-date information 00:29 on religious liberty. 00:31 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:35 and my guest on the program is Dr. John Graz. 00:37 Welcome, John. Pleasure to meet you, Lincoln. 00:39 You're Secretary General of the IRLA 00:43 of the Christian World Communion 00:45 until just recent election 00:47 and you've been Head of the Religious Liberty Department 00:50 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church World Headquarters 00:52 for 20 years. 00:54 Yeah. That's almost a lifetime in itself. 00:57 But you had a long career before that I know. 01:01 We've already had a few programs. 01:03 This is not your first time even to record on this program. 01:07 But we've spoken about many things, 01:09 including how we relate to the government and so on. 01:11 But let's talk a bit about on religious liberty. 01:14 How do we relate to other believers? 01:18 How do we relate to our own members communicating this 01:21 principal and how de we spread that and interact 01:25 with other churches in communicating 01:27 the principles of religious liberty? 01:29 Is it that easy job? 01:31 Do other churches see it the same way automatically? 01:33 Not really, not always but I think we've, 01:37 what happened today around the world where you have 01:40 so many Christians persecuted or even believers persecuted. 01:45 You know, people realized that, that's not a good way you know. 01:49 The best way to live together is really to 01:52 respect other, to accept the concept 01:55 of religious freedom. 01:56 And now as the people are traveling 01:58 from one country to another, 01:59 you cannot just say that this is a Christian country, 02:03 this is the Muslim countries or you will have to fight, 02:06 you know, to preserve one religion, 02:08 and it makes no sense 02:09 because at the end let people decide. 02:12 So you think this is the common solidarity 02:15 of all believers in response to seeing persecution? 02:18 Yeah, we saw that you know, some churches 02:20 had a really poor histories about religious freedom 02:23 but today most of them believe that, yes, you know, 02:28 our members too are persecuted and if we are not happy 02:32 because our members are persecuted, 02:33 we understand that people should be not happy 02:37 because they are member of other organization 02:39 because their member are persecuted too. 02:41 It means we should find a way where everyone could be 02:46 at the end respected for, about their religion. 02:49 I know there is a little downside to this. 02:54 Some religious practices are seen as aberrant 02:57 or offensive by other faiths so they are not easily going 03:01 to want to defend that other viewpoint even if they have 03:05 a general acceptance of religious liberty. 03:07 But we defend, you know, 03:09 we defend, we explain, we defend the principle. 03:10 We do. 03:11 We defend the right for everyone to believe 03:13 even the craziest stuff. 03:14 Yeah, we defend the principle. 03:15 It means sometime also people say that you know, 03:18 religious freedom, there is no limit. 03:21 No there are limit. 03:22 You don't defend people-- Civil law puts limits. 03:25 You can't harm other people, you can't defraud 03:27 other people, you can't harm children. 03:32 You can't rob money from the poor in the name of religion 03:35 or false charities or something. 03:37 There are many limits but they are limits we accept. 03:39 But they are not philosophical limits. 03:41 There are questions of law and order 03:43 and community responsibility. 03:45 But they are fact also that you know, 03:48 you accept the fact that people have 03:50 the right according to their conscience to be informed 03:55 because of course religious freedom means 03:57 you have the right to be informed. 03:59 If you want to make a choice, 04:00 you should have the freedom to receive different option, 04:03 different traditions and so on, 04:06 to know them and not just have one. 04:09 But we have to accept that, that is the best way 04:13 for a country to live at peace you know, this right, 04:17 and this right is given to you but that's normal 04:20 that it's given to the other too. 04:22 Now if you become dangerous, if you say that people 04:25 should be killed, those who don't believe like me 04:27 should be killed and that's another story you know. 04:30 That's not religious freedom. 04:32 Religious freedom is a human right. 04:34 It means you respect human rights 04:36 if you want people respect religious freedom. 04:39 I believe there is too little balancing 04:40 if the rights-- 04:42 There is a balance, you know, 04:43 and also religious freedom means you also have 04:45 to accept tensions. 04:47 It means if you, as you said you know, 04:49 your message is directly opposed 04:52 to the message of another religion, 04:53 which happen all the time, 04:56 you have to create some possibility to avoid, 04:58 to have a war, a religious war. 05:01 It means that except as long as, 05:04 you have the right to think differently, 05:06 you have the right to think that I am wrong, 05:08 you are right, but the limit is you have no right 05:12 to force me to believe what you believe. 05:15 Yeah, there's no question that in religious context 05:19 that sometimes provocations like in Northern Ireland, 05:22 which is highly politically charged. 05:24 It's true. 05:25 But you know the Protestants would make a march 05:27 to the Catholic area. 05:29 They had the right to do that but you know, 05:31 ahead of time you know that religious sensibilities 05:34 are going to be inflamed unnecessarily. 05:36 Exactly, you know, you are right. 05:38 You mentioned that it's the same with the Muslim. 05:41 You know that the Muslim doesn't like you know, 05:44 we, some people mock their tradition 05:47 or the prophet and so on. 05:50 I will defend the right to do it but the question 05:53 I will ask is, is it really necessary? 05:56 Will it help people to live in a better-- 05:59 You would have rational civilized caring people 06:03 would be aware of the sensibility 06:06 and refrain from it. 06:07 But if there is the principle at play, 06:10 you have to defend the Charlie Hebdo that's gonna 06:15 run those s objectionable pictures. 06:16 Yeah, we say that, you know, it's an interesting 06:19 phenomenon of work on this, 06:20 with the pictures of Muhammad and so on. 06:23 Yes, they dislike it. 06:25 Unfortunately, they are right in response 06:27 which sort of undercuts their position. 06:29 But Christians just as offended by sacrilegious 06:33 views of Christianity, 06:34 but the response is a little different. 06:36 So maybe there's an educational process 06:39 that should be put to work here. 06:40 But sometime you know, Christian reacted, 06:42 I remember, a long time ago, Christian put bomb 06:46 in a movie theatre or they attack 06:50 the clinics and so on. 06:51 That's a really minority fact, 06:53 that's not like what happened today with Islam. 06:56 But still, you know, you have to ask the question, 07:00 I have the right to do that but now if I do that, 07:03 this is what will happen. 07:05 Is it really necessary to do that? 07:08 What kind of provocation I have to do, 07:12 to help or will it help or not. 07:15 And that is the way that believer have to think. 07:17 You know, you publish your comics-- 07:21 Well, didn't Paul speak to this a lot theologically? 07:23 He wasn't talking about this. 07:25 He says, you know, "All things are legal 07:28 but not all things are profitable." 07:30 Yeah, exactly. 07:31 You know, being, I mean, people, 07:33 Christian people killed in some part of Africa 07:37 because in Paris they publish comic about 07:41 prophet of a religion. 07:43 Is it really necessary to do that? 07:45 Unfortunately, yes. 07:48 There's a cause and effect but other times 07:51 things don't actually happen but the story is told, 07:53 a made up story. 07:55 Remember, England nearly lost India ahead of time 07:58 when the rumors spread that there was pig's grease 08:02 in the bullet, the cartridge casings 08:04 but there wasn't. 08:07 As I remember, it was actually a lamb, 08:09 lamb's fat but that false story 08:12 lead to a huge religious backlash. 08:15 And we're back to where we were in other programs. 08:17 Part of what we're doing on religious liberty I think is 08:19 to communicate accurate information about 08:21 our faith and faith practice. 08:23 This is also a point you know, 08:24 you need to have a good information, 08:26 the real information and before you know, reacting, 08:30 you have to be sure that the information 08:32 you've got are correct and also to have relation with people. 08:38 As I mentioned sometime you know, in Norway, 08:42 when this happened you know, in Europe 08:44 with the provocation about the Prophet of Islam you know, 08:47 in Norway, they had a regular meeting with Muslim, 08:52 Jews and other religion and when it happened you know, 08:55 they had a meeting together and they said we should 08:58 do some thing because we don't want to see 09:01 a church burn or mosque burn in our country. 09:03 And they did and they went to the frontline 09:07 and they explained that they live together, 09:09 they live at peace and they don't follow 09:11 the way of other and it worked. 09:13 It worked. It worked. 09:15 It means there are something to do. 09:18 Yeah, um, so where do we go with this topic then? 09:23 What was your suggestion? 09:25 No, what I want also to say that you know, 09:27 don't believe because you have a religion 09:30 or because people are religious leader 09:32 then they will be in favor of religious freedom you know. 09:36 Not all religious leaders 09:39 are in favor of religious freedom. 09:41 There are many ways you know, 09:42 I remember a very nice meeting we had in Middle East 09:46 and we asked the question about 09:48 the conversion to an imam, a very nice man. 09:52 You wouldn't find any imam that's keen on conversion. 09:54 He smiled and said, "But you know these people 09:57 who changed their religion, they are not serious. 10:00 They are not serious." 10:02 Of course for him how you can change the religion 10:05 when you have the true religion. 10:06 It makes no sense. 10:08 And in many religion people think like that. 10:11 You know, they believe that those who change religion 10:13 have another interest. 10:14 They probably receive some money. 10:16 Or the worst they've been deceived. 10:17 Yes, enticed or deceived. 10:19 This is what happened 10:20 in Sri Lanka, in Myanmar, you know, in Sri Lanka, 10:22 they accused Christian to buy you know, 10:26 conversion and that's interesting. 10:28 And these things have happened on occasions. 10:30 They are not without substance 10:32 but they're anymore today, they are not really 10:34 the fuller explanation by any means. 10:36 Yeah, you know a religion can attract people. 10:39 Look at in some part of India where you have 10:42 a lot of poor people and you come 10:44 and you build schools and of course, 10:47 you open the school to the poor and of course 10:49 the poor in their religion are excluded 10:53 from even from the temple. 10:55 You open the school, you open the churches. 10:58 You will say to them you are children of God, 11:01 all of you and of course it attracts. 11:04 But this has been the factor in India 11:06 with the untouchables and Hinduism, 11:11 they were at great disadvantage but joining Christianity, 11:13 it's a social step up the ladder. 11:16 But you know, I think that people don't believe, 11:19 belong to religion. 11:21 No religion can say that these people belong to me 11:24 or these people living in these territories-- 11:26 No, no religion should say that. 11:27 Some religions do say that. 11:29 But we should not you know. 11:30 Yeah, you're right. 11:32 And this backs, back to the United Nations document, 11:34 the Declaration. 11:35 Exactly. I mean, that's exactly what it says. 11:36 You are a sovereign individual. 11:38 You have the right to inherent into yourself. 11:40 The community shouldn't determinate it for you. 11:42 You are creation from God. 11:44 God did not create a block of people. 11:47 He created one individual after the other. 11:50 It means it makes a difference but that's a way 11:52 of thinking and I think that when you don't respect 11:56 the fact that individual has a right to choose, 12:00 you don't respect religious freedom, 12:02 you don't respect human right. 12:04 Yeah, and we've made great progress 12:06 in the modern era on that 12:08 but I do believe with the rise of ISLE 12:10 or ISIS and the religious antagonisms, 12:14 particularly in the Middle East, 12:16 that understanding of the individual human integrity 12:20 is drifting away. 12:21 I really do think so. 12:22 Even in the West, as a counterpoint 12:24 to what we see there, we sort of closing ranks 12:27 and becoming more inflexible about religious activity 12:30 that's beyond our norm. 12:32 Yeah. 12:33 So it's going to be a difficult era. 12:36 Uh, let's take a break now. 12:37 I'll come back with Dr. John Graz 12:39 to continue this discussion. |
Revised 2015-08-13