Welcome to "The
Liberty Insider."
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This is the program
bringing you news, views,
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discussions, analysis
and up-to-date information
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on religious liberty.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine,
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and my guest on the
program is Dr. John Graz.
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Welcome, John.
Pleasure to meet you, Lincoln.
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You're Secretary
General of the IRLA
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of the Christian World Communion
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until just recent election
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and you've been Head of the
Religious Liberty Department
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for the Seventh-day Adventist
Church World Headquarters
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for 20 years.
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Yeah. That's almost
a lifetime in itself.
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But you had a long
career before that I know.
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We've already
had a few programs.
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This is not your first time
even to record on this program.
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But we've spoken
about many things,
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including how we relate
to the government and so on.
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But let's talk a bit
about on religious liberty.
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How do we relate
to other believers?
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How do we relate to our
own members communicating this
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principal and how de we
spread that and interact
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with other
churches in communicating
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the principles of
religious liberty?
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Is it that easy job?
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Do other churches see it
the same way automatically?
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Not really, not
always but I think we've,
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what happened today
around the world where you have
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so many Christians persecuted
or even believers persecuted.
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You know, people realized that,
that's not a good way you know.
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The best way to live
together is really to
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respect other, to
accept the concept
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of religious freedom.
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And now as the
people are traveling
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from one country to another,
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you cannot just say that
this is a Christian country,
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this is the Muslim countries
or you will have to fight,
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you know, to
preserve one religion,
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and it makes no sense
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because at the
end let people decide.
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So you think this is
the common solidarity
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of all believers in
response to seeing persecution?
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Yeah, we saw that
you know, some churches
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had a really poor histories
about religious freedom
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but today most of them
believe that, yes, you know,
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our members too are persecuted
and if we are not happy
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because our
members are persecuted,
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we understand that
people should be not happy
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because they are
member of other organization
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because their
member are persecuted too.
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It means we should find a
way where everyone could be
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at the end respected
for, about their religion.
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I know there is a
little downside to this.
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Some religious
practices are seen as aberrant
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or offensive by other faiths
so they are not easily going
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to want to defend that other
viewpoint even if they have
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a general acceptance
of religious liberty.
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But we defend, you know,
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we defend, we explain,
we defend the principle.
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We do.
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We defend the right
for everyone to believe
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even the craziest stuff.
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Yeah, we defend the principle.
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It means sometime also
people say that you know,
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religious
freedom, there is no limit.
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No there are limit.
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You don't defend
people-- Civil law puts limits.
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You can't harm other
people, you can't defraud
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other people, you
can't harm children.
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You can't rob money from
the poor in the name of religion
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or false charities or something.
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There are many limits but
they are limits we accept.
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But they are not
philosophical limits.
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There are
questions of law and order
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and community responsibility.
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But they are fact
also that you know,
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you accept the
fact that people have
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the right according to
their conscience to be informed
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because of course
religious freedom means
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you have the
right to be informed.
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If you want to make a choice,
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you should have the freedom
to receive different option,
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different traditions and so on,
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to know them and
not just have one.
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But we have to accept
that, that is the best way
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for a country to live at
peace you know, this right,
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and this right is given
to you but that's normal
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that it's given
to the other too.
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Now if you become dangerous,
if you say that people
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should be killed, those
who don't believe like me
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should be killed and
that's another story you know.
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That's not religious freedom.
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Religious
freedom is a human right.
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It means you
respect human rights
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if you want people
respect religious freedom.
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I believe there is
too little balancing
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if the rights--
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There is a balance, you know,
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and also religious
freedom means you also have
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to accept tensions.
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It means if you,
as you said you know,
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your message is directly opposed
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to the message
of another religion,
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which happen all the time,
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you have to create
some possibility to avoid,
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to have a war, a religious war.
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It means that except as long as,
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you have the right
to think differently,
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you have the right to
think that I am wrong,
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you are right, but the
limit is you have no right
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to force me to
believe what you believe.
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Yeah, there's no question
that in religious context
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that sometimes provocations
like in Northern Ireland,
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which is highly
politically charged.
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It's true.
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But you know the
Protestants would make a march
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to the Catholic area.
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They had the right
to do that but you know,
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ahead of time you know
that religious sensibilities
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are going to be
inflamed unnecessarily.
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Exactly, you
know, you are right.
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You mentioned that it's
the same with the Muslim.
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You know that the
Muslim doesn't like you know,
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we, some people
mock their tradition
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or the prophet and so on.
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I will defend the right
to do it but the question
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I will ask is, is
it really necessary?
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Will it help people
to live in a better--
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You would have
rational civilized caring people
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would be aware
of the sensibility
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and refrain from it.
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But if there is
the principle at play,
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you have to defend the
Charlie Hebdo that's gonna
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run those s
objectionable pictures.
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Yeah, we say that, you
know, it's an interesting
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phenomenon of work on this,
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with the pictures
of Muhammad and so on.
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Yes, they dislike it.
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Unfortunately, they
are right in response
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which sort of
undercuts their position.
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But Christians just as
offended by sacrilegious
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views of Christianity,
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but the response
is a little different.
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So maybe there's
an educational process
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that should be put to work here.
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But sometime you
know, Christian reacted,
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I remember, a long
time ago, Christian put bomb
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in a movie
theatre or they attack
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the clinics and so on.
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That's a really minority fact,
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that's not like what
happened today with Islam.
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But still, you know, you
have to ask the question,
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I have the right to do
that but now if I do that,
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this is what will happen.
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Is it really
necessary to do that?
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What kind of
provocation I have to do,
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to help or will it help or not.
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And that is the way
that believer have to think.
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You know, you
publish your comics--
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Well, didn't Paul speak
to this a lot theologically?
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He wasn't talking about this.
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He says, you know,
"All things are legal
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but not all
things are profitable."
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Yeah, exactly.
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You know, being, I mean, people,
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Christian people
killed in some part of Africa
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because in Paris
they publish comic about
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prophet of a religion.
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Is it really
necessary to do that?
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Unfortunately, yes.
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There's a cause and
effect but other times
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things don't actually
happen but the story is told,
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a made up story.
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Remember, England
nearly lost India ahead of time
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when the rumors spread
that there was pig's grease
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in the bullet,
the cartridge casings
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but there wasn't.
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As I remember, it
was actually a lamb,
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lamb's fat but that false story
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lead to a huge
religious backlash.
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And we're back to where
we were in other programs.
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Part of what we're doing on
religious liberty I think is
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to communicate
accurate information about
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our faith and faith practice.
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This is also a point you know,
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you need to have
a good information,
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the real information and
before you know, reacting,
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you have to be sure
that the information
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you've got are correct and also
to have relation with people.
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As I mentioned
sometime you know, in Norway,
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when this happened
you know, in Europe
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with the provocation about
the Prophet of Islam you know,
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in Norway, they had a
regular meeting with Muslim,
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Jews and other religion
and when it happened you know,
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they had a meeting
together and they said we should
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do some thing
because we don't want to see
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a church burn or
mosque burn in our country.
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And they did and
they went to the frontline
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and they explained
that they live together,
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they live at peace
and they don't follow
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the way of other and it worked.
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It worked. It worked.
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It means there
are something to do.
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Yeah, um, so where do
we go with this topic then?
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What was your suggestion?
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No, what I want also
to say that you know,
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don't believe
because you have a religion
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or because people
are religious leader
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then they will be in favor
of religious freedom you know.
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Not all religious leaders
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are in favor of
religious freedom.
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There are many ways you know,
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I remember a very nice
meeting we had in Middle East
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and we asked the question about
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the conversion to an
imam, a very nice man.
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You wouldn't find any
imam that's keen on conversion.
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He smiled and said,
"But you know these people
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who changed their
religion, they are not serious.
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They are not serious."
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Of course for him how
you can change the religion
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when you have the true religion.
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It makes no sense.
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And in many religion
people think like that.
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You know, they believe
that those who change religion
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have another interest.
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They probably
receive some money.
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Or the worst
they've been deceived.
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Yes, enticed or deceived.
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This is what happened
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in Sri Lanka, in
Myanmar, you know, in Sri Lanka,
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they accused
Christian to buy you know,
00:10:22.35\00:10:26.35
conversion and
that's interesting.
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And these things have
happened on occasions.
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They are not without substance
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but they're anymore
today, they are not really
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the fuller
explanation by any means.
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Yeah, you know a
religion can attract people.
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Look at in some part
of India where you have
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a lot of poor
people and you come
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and you build
schools and of course,
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you open the school
to the poor and of course
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the poor in their
religion are excluded
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from even from the temple.
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You open the school,
you open the churches.
00:10:55.28\00:10:58.89
You will say to them
you are children of God,
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all of you and of
course it attracts.
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But this has been
the factor in India
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with the
untouchables and Hinduism,
00:11:06.80\00:11:11.03
they were at great disadvantage
but joining Christianity,
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it's a social
step up the ladder.
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But you know, I think
that people don't believe,
00:11:16.81\00:11:19.51
belong to religion.
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No religion can say that
these people belong to me
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or these people
living in these territories--
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No, no religion should say that.
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Some religions do say that.
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But we should not you know.
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Yeah, you're right.
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And this backs, back to
the United Nations document,
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the Declaration.
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Exactly. I mean,
that's exactly what it says.
00:11:35.62\00:11:36.96
You are a sovereign individual.
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You have the right to
inherent into yourself.
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The community shouldn't
determinate it for you.
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You are creation from God.
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God did not
create a block of people.
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He created one
individual after the other.
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It means it makes a
difference but that's a way
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of thinking and I think
that when you don't respect
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the fact that individual
has a right to choose,
00:11:56.64\00:12:00.75
you don't respect
religious freedom,
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you don't respect human right.
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Yeah, and we've
made great progress
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in the modern era on that
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but I do believe
with the rise of ISLE
00:12:08.32\00:12:10.83
or ISIS and the
religious antagonisms,
00:12:10.86\00:12:14.73
particularly in the Middle East,
00:12:14.76\00:12:16.33
that understanding of the
individual human integrity
00:12:16.36\00:12:20.04
is drifting away.
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I really do think so.
00:12:21.44\00:12:22.77
Even in the
West, as a counterpoint
00:12:22.80\00:12:24.41
to what we see there,
we sort of closing ranks
00:12:24.44\00:12:27.21
and becoming more inflexible
about religious activity
00:12:27.24\00:12:30.85
that's beyond our norm.
00:12:30.88\00:12:32.51
Yeah.
00:12:32.55\00:12:33.92
So it's going to
be a difficult era.
00:12:33.95\00:12:36.55
Uh, let's take a break now.
00:12:36.58\00:12:37.92
I'll come back
with Dr. John Graz
00:12:37.95\00:12:39.65
to continue this discussion.
00:12:39.69\00:12:41.16