Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Dr. John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000293B
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00:03 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:06 This is the program that you have been following 00:08 and waiting for and we're gonna continue 00:09 our discussion with Dr. John Graz. 00:13 We have been talking about 00:15 government relations and how we relate to them. 00:16 And the origin of persecution. 00:18 Right, that's what I was gonna-- 00:19 Why your government decide to persecute? 00:21 You know, we got under persecution 00:22 but what-- I mean, there's many different variations. 00:25 Yeah. 00:26 So what do you think is most common 00:28 or what are some of the dynamics that create 00:30 what ends up as persecution? 00:32 Is it just misunderstanding? 00:34 Is it a pre-existing animus or what? 00:36 Yeah, you know, 00:37 when the government is really linked to a religion, 00:39 like some countries, you know, 00:42 where the religion and the government are one, 00:44 you can say that it could be 00:47 because your religion is different. 00:49 Conflict of beliefs. 00:50 But sometimes when the government is 00:53 just want to control everything, 00:56 it could be because the government thinks that 00:58 they are not controlling you enough 01:00 and they should control you more. 01:02 It has nothing to do 01:04 with the fact that you believe in Jesus, 01:06 in the resurrection and so on. 01:08 But it has to do as the way you organize, 01:10 are you organized, 01:12 and we never know what can happen. 01:13 Maybe you are well organized 01:15 and maybe one day you can attack us. 01:17 So it means we have to control you. 01:19 In its simplest sense that explains 01:21 the historic attitude 01:23 of the Chinese Communist Party against Falun Gong. 01:25 Control. 01:26 Yeah, a very benign, 01:28 simple sort of a pseudo religion, 01:31 but they saw its structure itself as a potential threat 01:35 to their authority. 01:36 Yes, and they are going back to their tradition, 01:38 even more dangerous than when you are a religion 01:41 coming from outside 01:43 because the government can always say, 01:45 "We are from the country, 01:46 you know, your religion comes from outside." 01:48 But when you have someone challenging you saying, 01:50 "Hey, we are from here, our roots are here." 01:53 But in other way 01:55 and sometimes we don't see that is, 01:58 you know, the economical dimension. 02:02 Imagine that. 02:03 Just say to you, imagine that in a country 02:05 where suddenly 50% of the population 02:09 become an Adventist, became Adventist 02:10 it's really good Adventist. 02:14 You think that those who are selling tobacco, drugs, alcohol 02:19 will be very happy with that, including some other things. 02:23 It means of course, you know, people are defending 02:26 what the money they are making. 02:28 Vested interests. Yeah. 02:29 And at this time, you know, 02:30 you can be a dangerous for some groups, economics, 02:35 group of, you know, I don't know 02:38 but people who are just, 02:40 you know, if they come, if they multiply, 02:42 I will lose money. I will lose more money. 02:44 They are dangerous for my business. 02:47 And very often, you know, when you-- 02:49 as long as you are not dangerous 02:51 for the business of people, you know, they can accept you. 02:54 You are strange but any way, but when you become dangerous, 02:58 even if you are non-violent, 03:00 even if you don't want to attack other people, 03:04 you are dangerous for my business. 03:05 Well, I think you are explaining 03:07 and as you were talking about it, 03:08 I saw it even more clearly, 03:09 although I thought about this before. 03:11 In society I think it's social. If you are socially different. 03:15 Yeah. 03:16 If you keep to yourselves, 03:18 if you have practices that people 03:19 that people just find offensive to their way of life, 03:23 that can create persecution. 03:24 But with the government, it's really when you affect 03:27 their prerogatives of their power or their income, 03:29 or their connection to the running society. 03:33 Most governments in my view don't have a particular animus 03:38 against any religion per se, 03:40 unless they are in the hip pocket 03:42 of a state church. 03:44 They just have jealousy against anybody 03:47 that's affecting the mechanisms of their power. 03:49 Exactly, you know, 03:50 the fact that you believe that Jesus will come soon, 03:53 the government, why they should react against that? 03:55 Except if they are strongly ideological government. 03:59 Yeah, but most of the government as you say, 04:02 but the fact that you defend some values 04:04 which could put you in conflict 04:07 with the politics of the government 04:09 is more dangerous. 04:10 Then you become 04:12 not just religious but you become dangerous, 04:15 you challenged them and what you believe is 04:19 in fact, you know, leading them to a position of weakness. 04:23 This is why, you know, 04:24 in a communist country like Vietnam and China, 04:28 they look what happened in Russia 04:31 and they said that, some interpreted like this one, 04:34 you know, at the end religion, 04:36 you know, won against communism in Russia. 04:38 Look they're coming strong and so on-- 04:41 it may happen in our country. 04:43 Yeah. And how can we avoid that? 04:45 We don't want it happen in our country-- 04:47 Well and they're partly right. 04:48 Remember when we were in Laos 04:50 which is ruled by communist Pathet Lao regime. 04:53 They see Christian witness 04:56 as being a beachhead for western political structures 05:01 and they are not totally wrong. 05:04 Because as people become western protestant-- 05:08 join western protestant religions, 05:11 it changes their whole worldview 05:13 and I do have sympathy for that other system. 05:17 Yeah, of course, you know, but-- 05:18 It's not necessarily inherited in the religion 05:20 but that just socially happened. 05:21 I think that it's not fair to accuse Christian minority 05:25 around the world to be a link at-- 05:26 to be a link at-- directly linked to their west 05:30 because they have the same religion. 05:32 Because, you know, normally-- 05:34 imagine that you are persecuted. 05:36 You are persecuted for something which is wrong. 05:38 You know if you take Middle East, 05:40 the Christians have been the leaders 05:42 in the war of independence for many in many countries. 05:46 Even if the power 05:49 who colonized them were Christian, 05:51 but they were fighting with their people against, 05:54 it means we cannot accuse in most of the country 05:56 them to be a spy and so. 05:58 But now if you are persecuted in your country. 06:01 But I was talking about Laos, I do think in Laos, 06:03 that dynamic is working there. 06:05 And they are not wrong because 06:07 it's the evangelical influence 06:11 with the Hmong tribesmen 06:14 which has the direct connection in this case the foreign power. 06:18 They're paranoid in thinking that way 06:21 but it's not out of thin air. 06:23 There is a social connection to when overseas religions-- 06:26 You know, you remember when we went to Ambon 06:29 When I come back, you know, some people said that, 06:32 you know, the extremists Muslim said, 06:36 "If we attack the Christian, may be America will come 06:39 and they will bomb us." 06:41 And I told this story with someone in Russia 06:43 and they said, "No we will never do that." 06:46 It means, you know, the politic is, I know the game. 06:50 What was the interest for Christian to invade Iraq? 06:54 You know Christian lost. 06:55 That they lost-- they lost their war, 06:59 you know, they lost their position, 07:00 they had to leave 07:01 because a Christian country invade their country, 07:04 the result was worst than before. 07:07 It means that's a way that people-- 07:09 Well, we know that 07:11 the initial Gulf War II was nothing to do with religion. 07:16 Yeah, nothing. 07:18 It arguably had something to do with oil, 07:19 but it wasn't religion. 07:20 But all religions lost on it and Christians most 07:23 because they lost their protected status, 07:26 but I think you can make a good case in Iraq 07:29 that the factions of Islam all lost 07:33 because they were at each others throats, 07:34 they are killing each other vigorously so. 07:36 That's the same with the Crusade, you know, 07:38 the Crusade did not have the Christian in Middle East 07:41 because they were according to what some people say 07:44 60% of the population were Christian before the Crusade 07:48 and after you know, 07:50 1 or 2 century left are just 40%. 07:52 It means, no, I think that it's something different 07:56 we can adjust. 07:57 It may, in some case be the case 07:59 but more or less generally speaking is different. 08:02 Now, I know, you know, 08:04 if you want to talk 08:05 the relation with the government 08:07 we cannot avoid that, we have to meet. 08:08 Whenever we travel, 08:10 meeting the government is to recognize that for us 08:15 that country has a leader. 08:17 Right, we are not enforcing them, whoever it is. 08:20 Whether it's Saddam Hussein or he is gone 08:24 and also Hitler is gone. 08:26 But even those persons needed to be approached 08:29 when they ruled those countries. 08:31 Yeah, of course, 08:32 you know, sometimes you have some type of leaders 08:34 where that's better may be not to visit the country 08:37 because it may put you in a strange position 08:40 but, you know, and also 08:42 when we are defending religious freedom, 08:44 we can see that government are very, 08:46 in many country are every open. 08:48 They see religious freedom like health, like education, 08:52 as something which can help people 08:55 and they want to test you, they want to know 08:58 what kind of-- what is your interest? 09:00 What is your real agenda? You are doing that for what? 09:05 And when you explain-- first you know, 09:07 we have Eastern way of defending religious freedom. 09:09 It did not happen yesterday. 09:11 We have more than one century in our history 09:15 in defending religious freedom. 09:17 Then they understand-- 09:18 And generally to explain ourselves 09:20 is to minimize to some degree 09:23 any potential antagonism with the government. 09:25 But I can think of one where that might not be so, 09:28 talking to Saudi Arabia. 09:29 Yeah. 09:31 We get with them because they don't want pluralism. 09:33 Yeah, okay but still, you know, you met people, people know you 09:38 and who knows may be one day 09:39 you will have a big problem there 09:41 and at this time you will know-- 09:43 It's a good point. 09:44 To whom you have to meet 09:45 and to help people who are persecuted. 09:47 And I know, my father used to be 09:48 head of the temperance department 09:50 which was-- 09:51 has a long history within our church 09:53 with the religious liberty department. 09:54 But we had wonderful relations 09:56 because of his contacts with Saudi Arabia in particular 10:00 and those other areas 10:02 and we were under no allegiance. 10:03 They were not about to change their internal system 10:05 but dialogue was very good. 10:06 Dialogue just for its own sake 10:08 because you are explaining yourself 10:10 to them all the time. 10:11 And just to show you, Lincoln, 10:13 all how does it work and sometime 10:14 how will the government recognize our work 10:17 for religious freedom. 10:19 You know, but we each receive a declaration, 10:21 a medal from the government of Poland, 10:24 from the president of Poland. 10:25 Some colleagues received the same, 10:27 I received 4, 5 government declaration, 10:31 the last one was 10:32 from the congress of The Republic of Peru. 10:35 It means governments are looking at us 10:38 as bringing a positive contribution. 10:40 Absolutely. 10:42 For peace and for people and for human right. 10:45 I talk also to the commission of human right in Chile 10:49 and I think that you cannot avoid that. 10:51 You are living with people, 10:53 you are living with their leader. 10:55 If their leader sometime are also your leader, 10:58 they have to be, they have to know you 11:00 and you have to know them. 11:01 And these medals are recognitions of relationships 11:04 and good amicable feelings but by no means 11:08 when you get a medal from government, 11:09 does that mean that you are their boatman. 11:11 Absolutely not if they don't sign any agreement. 11:14 Right or if there is some religious contact 11:16 where you got the medal, same thing. 11:18 They are just so good for your community 11:20 because the community received the benefit 11:23 of this kind of honor. 11:24 Absolutely, that is a very good contest. 11:25 I think really that we are living in a world, 11:28 which in most of the country are organized 11:31 you know, and you have leaders, people elect their leaders 11:35 or anyway you who have leaders, 11:37 as a defending religious freedom 11:39 you cannot avoid to deal with the leaders. 11:42 You have really to meet them. 11:44 You have to make sure that they know what you represent 11:49 and they know why you represent a such important values 11:53 which is religious freedom. 11:55 In the New Testament story, 11:57 Jesus famously lectured His disciples 12:00 about their responsibility initially to heaven 12:04 but He held out the coin and He says, 12:06 "Render unto ceased what is ceases." 12:09 When we talk about religious liberty, 12:11 of course, it's a divine principle 12:14 but it's facilitated by the authorities 12:19 and we need to relate to them, encourage them 12:22 and present to them this principle in a way 12:27 that they can help us practice it 12:29 in the way that will please God. 12:31 what we need to stay clear of is the model 12:34 that the Roman Empire early adopted 12:36 when Constantine converted the Christianity, 12:40 took Christianity under his umbrella 12:43 and then his control. 12:45 That's not the rendering unto ceased, 12:47 that ever ultimately empowers religious liberty. 12:51 But we need the perception that will enable us 12:55 as we do often with religious liberty to reach out, 12:58 acknowledge the civil power 13:00 and encourage ceaser as it were, 13:03 to help us practice 13:06 our faith in God before the state. 13:10 For Liberty insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-08-13