Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Dr. John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000293A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider, this is the program
00:26 and I hope you have been following it regularly 00:27 that brings in news, views, discussion, 00:29 up-to-date information, 00:31 and analysis of religious liberty events 00:34 in our world today. 00:36 And my name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:39 and my guest on the program Dr. John Graz. 00:42 Pleasure to be with you. 00:43 Man of many titles and many skills. 00:45 Thank you. I will just pick one. 00:47 You have been head of the Religious Liberty Department 00:49 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church for, 00:50 at the headquarters for 20 years now. 00:52 Yeah. 00:55 When I think back on church's history 00:57 and the principles 00:58 of religious liberty by extension, 01:01 it's significant that 01:03 there was a lot of persecution of early Christians, 01:06 but the turning point, both good and bad, 01:09 was when the government endorsed and supported 01:12 and protected religion by Constantine. 01:16 And yet theologically you can trace 01:18 a lot of the troubles from that point. 01:19 Yeah. 01:20 But it was very important for the early Christians to, 01:25 change from being a persecuted minority to being, 01:29 to having good relations with the government 01:30 where they were supported. 01:32 Is that still important today, you think? 01:34 No, I think you cannot ignore the government. 01:38 You know, you are part of the community 01:40 and the government is part of the community. 01:42 That's not really our philosophy to be isolated. 01:46 We want to be part of the community. 01:48 We want to help the community. 01:50 We want to be a plus for the community. 01:53 You know, and there are so many ways to do that. 01:55 Just when I went to Peru, a few weeks ago. 01:59 I was associate to a big event, 02:01 you know, young people, thousands of young people, 02:04 planted 40,000 tress in the city of Lima, 02:08 and in the city of Salvador. 02:09 Then how are they gonna grow in Lima? 02:11 I have been in Lima. 02:12 They claim, no, yes. 02:15 In Lima they claim that it never rains, never. 02:18 Lima never rain? 02:19 Yeah, that you have to put some water. 02:21 Yeah exactly never. 02:22 So I hope you've got to follow up watering through. 02:24 Yeah. Yeah. 02:25 Exactly, and this is what happened also in Villa, 02:28 as Villa EI Salvador, but that was-- 02:31 you know it means that we are part of the community, 02:33 we want to do something... 02:34 Oh, great positives. 02:35 When we organize the meeting on religious freedom, 02:37 it's part of the community, 02:38 we want to involve the community, 02:39 we want to involve those who represent the community 02:43 because, you know, government normally represent people. 02:46 Now I set you up a bit at the beginning 02:48 and you didn't quite answer to the imputation I was making. 02:54 With Constantine, the problem was not 02:56 that he protected and supported Christians, 02:58 the problem was that he entered 03:00 into theological fields 03:01 and dictated what sort of orthodoxy was acceptable. 03:04 Yeah and also it become... 03:06 And we are not encouraging that with leaders. 03:07 You know, I think the problem-- 03:09 the problem comes when you have the question of power. 03:13 You know, why politician and government 03:15 are interested in religion. 03:17 It's just a question of power. 03:19 You know, Constantine, it's a very interesting story 03:22 because Constantine, you know, came at the time 03:25 when Christian were persecuted, 03:26 terribly persecuted during 10 years 03:29 and Constantine come and he said that, 03:32 "I want to give freedom to Christian. 03:33 But not only Christian, to all people. 03:36 Stop persecuting people for their religion." 03:39 That was a fabulous thing. 03:41 Can you imagine the story of the Roman Empire, 03:43 if he had stopped there. 03:45 But the problem is, of course when you are in a power, 03:49 you need allies and Christian became his allies. 03:54 And he needed them and they needed him. 03:56 And they've made a kind of deal. 03:58 And he threw in his luck with them. 04:00 And of course the church was divided 04:01 and Constantine said that 04:03 I don't want to have a divided church 04:04 because if you are divided, 04:06 what about my power? 04:07 And people forget. 04:08 In fact, I had a dispute with one of our authors over this 04:12 that people forget that right out of the gate, 04:14 Constantine persecuted at lower level persecution 04:18 than his forbearers 04:19 because once he had given his authority 04:23 to the church leadership 04:24 and then called a council 04:26 where they chose the correct books, 04:28 then he is the power of the state to persecute 04:31 those who were using the wrong books. 04:32 Disagree. Yeah, of course. 04:33 And used the power of the state to destroy the wrong books. 04:37 Yeah, that was, you know, 04:39 you had a moment, a fabulous moment 04:41 and after you had a kind of corruption. 04:44 And also, you know, that's always, 04:46 you need to have 04:47 a good relation with the government, 04:49 but always be careful, the government can corrupt you 04:52 because it's a matter of power. 04:54 You can corrupt the government too 04:56 and the government can corrupt you. 04:57 Because, you know, 04:59 a Constantine gave a lot of privileges to the bishops 05:02 because the bishops were everywhere 05:04 and if you had some one of influence 05:06 in every city of the empire-- 05:07 He wanted to use those 05:09 as exhibitories of the government. 05:10 That gives the fabulous power to you. 05:11 Yeah. 05:13 This happened in many places, you know, I think about Russia, 05:16 where the church were persecuted. 05:18 Now, you know, the relation with the church 05:20 and the state are very good. 05:22 It could be good, it could be, we have to be very careful. 05:26 And the same, then now you are church 05:28 and you have a good relation with the government, 05:30 but as a church or as a religious organization, 05:33 you have also decadents. 05:35 You have people who disagree with you. 05:36 Yeah. 05:38 And if you have a good connection 05:39 with the government, you know, 05:41 that is very simple, it's natural. 05:42 The government said, "What can you do for us?" 05:45 And you say, "What can you do for us?" 05:47 Now we have a deal. 05:48 I think it is unavoidable 05:50 when it's particularly in a democracy, 05:51 when-- as we do, you make a representation 05:56 to the government from our view, to explain ourselves, 05:59 their interest is heightened as they see 06:02 your numbers representing voters or constituency 06:06 that's unavoidable. 06:07 But I think we need to-- you understand it fully, 06:11 we need to avoid this cross pollination. 06:13 Yeah, we are, you know... 06:15 Where we perhaps might allow the state, 06:18 as Constantine did to act partially towards religion 06:23 and we ourselves shouldn't think 06:25 political powers end in itself, 06:26 the church is never helped by that. 06:28 You know, as Adventists we are in minority everywhere. 06:31 But there are some interesting country. 06:32 We had a festival of religious freedom 06:34 in Jamaica. 06:35 Very well organized by... 06:37 Very high percentage's of 06:38 Seventh-day Adventist in Jamaica. 06:40 Nigel Coke, you know, he did a good work. 06:41 We met the head of state, who is an Adventist, 06:44 the senate president who is an Adventist, 06:46 we had, we met several leaders. 06:47 But that was interesting 06:48 'cause the leader of the opposition 06:50 is also an Adventist or his family are Adventist. 06:55 It means you have-- Adventists are on both sides 06:58 and that is healthy ways, 07:00 you know, the government cannot say, 07:02 "Oh, you are voting in block form." 07:03 I mean for what? 07:05 But I have the example, 07:06 of although some of the churches around the world 07:09 where I saw that, 07:10 where the leader of the church said, 07:13 "We vote for this political party." 07:15 And when the political party get the government, 07:18 they receive a lot of privileges. 07:20 And you can see a lot of building and so on. 07:23 That is not healthy. That is a corruption. 07:26 And I think that we have to be very clear. 07:28 This is why having good relation 07:30 with the government, 07:32 it's something we have to do, you know. 07:34 But be careful, good relation doesn't mean 07:37 that you sell your soul to someone else. 07:40 You keep, you know, the mission you have, 07:43 you have a responsibility, 07:44 you represent the kingdom of God, 07:46 you represent the values of God. 07:48 You don't want to seal it, to sell it. 07:50 And yet I think from the Bible, in one case, 07:52 I think we probably, if the occasion warrants 07:55 we might wonder over each. 07:56 Remember it wasn't the group that said to Paul, 07:58 you know, "You want to make a Christian." 08:01 I think it was Felix or... 08:03 Or Felix, it's either Felix 08:04 or a group of one of his representatives. 08:05 Yeah, yeah. 08:07 I would hope that as we represent religious liberty 08:10 and a Seventh-day Adventist promoting that, 08:14 while we are not seeking favoritism from the government 08:17 but we should be missionary minded about it. 08:19 It's not just an abstract 08:21 civil construct versus religious activity. 08:24 But to come back to the Christian 08:27 after being persecuted during three centuries, 08:30 you know, when you live in the countries 08:32 where people look at you, 08:34 what is your religion and they look down at you 08:37 and you see that because your religion, 08:40 you will be excluded, exterminate-- 08:43 not exterminate that would be the worst. 08:45 Sometimes. 08:47 Discriminate-- sometimes it's true. 08:48 But discriminated. 08:50 You have no right, you know, to do any-- 08:52 even to think because of your religion. 08:54 And of course and suddenly you have someone 08:56 who came and say, 08:57 I accept the difference, I accept you. 09:01 The temptation to make a deal is very important 09:03 but at least you know, 09:05 I think there are some limit 09:06 where as believer, citizen of the kingdom of the God, 09:11 we say no. 09:13 That's the limit on my values, you know, I cannot-- 09:16 This is why Christian 09:17 who are too much involved in politics, 09:19 may lose the vision of the kingdom of God. 09:23 I think so. 09:24 We are first citizen of the kingdom of God, 09:25 and governments needs people like us 09:28 to say this is the correct way, 09:31 we don't want to interfere in the politic business and so on. 09:34 But in term of values, this is the correct way. 09:37 Well, we are witnessing 09:39 the government as well as to the society... 09:41 And... 09:42 Can you explain to me, exactly how it works? 09:47 You had an associate whose primary charter is to be 09:52 a liaison mostly with the US Congress. 09:56 US Congress and the White House and Soviet Union. 09:57 Yeah, how does that function? 10:00 Or how would you discriminate 10:02 or differentiate that from lobbying. 10:06 Yeah, that's-- that's a good question. 10:08 I think that he-- first, 10:10 you know, he has to represent a church. 10:11 Our associate they represent the church. 10:14 It means, he have the feeling 10:16 that he is an ambassador 10:19 or the ambassador of a church. 10:21 And everywhere in every meeting, 10:22 he has to be in harmony with the church. 10:25 He receive the order, I should say the influence 10:28 and the guidance from the church, 10:31 not from the government. 10:33 And of course, if imagine an associate 10:35 is not doing these work correctly, 10:38 we have to say sorry 10:39 but you have to correct your way. 10:42 That's... 10:43 Yeah, well that could be. 10:45 But I don't think we've had 10:46 a charter in over a longer period of time. 10:47 So it's not really 10:50 too depended on the individual 10:52 what is our aim in having somebody there. 10:55 Yeah, our aim, you know, first is to know 10:57 what's going on there and especially in Washington. 11:00 You know, we believed that one day, 11:02 the Sunday law will be imposed, you will have a persecution. 11:05 We believe that America 11:07 will play a very important role in the last days. 11:09 It means we have to be there 11:11 and to give the right information. 11:12 So it's to inform ourselves 11:14 about what's happening with government. 11:15 To inform our self about what's going on 11:16 and not to let rumors spreading every day and so on. 11:21 And secondly also to inform the authority about ourselves. 11:25 The authorities has to know who we hire. 11:28 It's not, you know, people in charge of the power, 11:31 they have decision to take, they are under the pressure, 11:34 they manipulate to, 11:35 they're under the pressure of the media, 11:37 they are under the pressure of people. 11:39 They need to know, who really, what kind of group is it? 11:43 What kind of religion is it? 11:44 If nobody is here, 11:46 this is why we start this campaign of church ambassador. 11:49 If our seat is empty, close to the... 11:52 Someone else will speak for us. 11:54 Someone else will speak and that's the point. 11:57 If they want to persecute people, okay, 12:00 but they have to know really what kind of people are there. 12:03 But a lot of persecution does arise from an ignorance 12:05 or lack of knowledge about what someone stands for. 12:09 Some, it depends... 12:11 At the end of the day, some of the difference are insoluble 12:14 because we do have doctrinal differences 12:16 say with the Roman Catholic Church. 12:19 But you know that might 12:20 create its own complications in certain scenarios. 12:24 But to marginalize or to have some legal penalties 12:28 within even a free country because they think 12:32 that Seventh-day Adventists are a total sect 12:34 to sort of like Jones town group. 12:36 That would be the worst and that could happen. 12:38 Yeah, that could happen 12:39 All it would take would be one advisor of a ruler 12:42 who has a skewed view and in the absence 12:44 of the accurate information that would carry. 12:47 Yeah, may be we could come back on this idea, 12:49 that's a good, you know, 12:51 what is really at the origin of the persecution. 12:53 Yes. Well, we will have to comeback. 12:56 Take a break now. 12:57 So stay with us and we will continue 12:58 this discussion with Dr. John Graz. |
Revised 2015-08-13