Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider
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before the break
with guest Dr. John Graz.
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He was growing
very enthusiastic about
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the role of the
IRLA in the world
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because with reason,
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fabulous things have
been happening, many things.
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But you know, the
question could be asked
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isn't that enough for IRLA
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to just have the
meeting of experts
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or you could do the other.
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Isn't that enough
just to have some rallies?
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Is there a reason for these,
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the spread of
activities that you have.
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How do you see them
fitting into a master plan?
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Yeah, that's a good
question but you know, first
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what I thought these,
when you have an event
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and event is the best
way to mobilize people.
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You know, there are
many places around the world
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where if you have nothing,
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nothing is interested,
no one is interested.
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And as we went to
our religious freedom
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partners in every
country around the world.
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If they have nothing to
do where they will not exist,
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you know, they will disappear.
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It means, when
you have an event,
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you mobilize people.
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You mobilize a lot of
people around the event.
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You give them a job to do
then also the second thing,
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they make
religious freedom visible
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because they
will talk about that.
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They will learn
and so about that and--
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Which is very
important because people,
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you know, as I said
before on this program,
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nobody's against
religious liberty.
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But everybody, oh, not everybody
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but many, many people have
many divergent views on this
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and the role of
IRLA as I see it,
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either at the public
rallies for many people,
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all the experts for
some selected academics
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is to define it on our terms.
explain religious liberty.
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You know, we published a journal
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with the result of our work--
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Fides et Libertas.
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Fides et Libertas,
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the result of
the meeting of expert
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and the symposium and so on.
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It mean there is also a scholar
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and academic
branch but you know,
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first you know,
you mobilize people.
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Secondly, you meet officials
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because when you organize
an event you invite official.
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And of course the
officials are interested.
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Certainly they are
interested in religious freedom.
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They are interested about
their church who represent.
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They are impressed
because you don't come alone
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but you say that we
are all group of people
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from different churches
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or different way
of thinking and so on.
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It means that's
not just one group
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but we represent a group
of believer or unbeliever,
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who believe in
religious freedom.
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And they come most of the time,
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they are happy to
attend the meeting
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and coming to the meeting
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they think about
religious freedom.
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Then they became your friend
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when it comes to
religious freedom.
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This is why you know
in Brazil, Sao Paulo,
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where we had so many meetings.
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Now, we have a
commission on religious freedom
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and soon probably we will have
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a state commission
of religious freedom.
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And when the state
commission of Sao Paulo
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about religious
freedom will be done probably,
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our people will
be among the leaders,
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but probably one day
the government of Brazil
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will decide that
they should also have
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a national
commission on religious freedom.
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Then when they have
a national commission
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of religious freedom,
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Brazil, you know, at
the international level
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will speak about
religious freedom.
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You know, in South
America very often now you know,
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I'm pushing when I
visit South America
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and meet the government people
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you know in Chile I met
vice president of the senate,
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the vice
president of the congress.
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The minister of
justice in Sao Paulo.
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I said to them, you know, Brazil
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should become the
voice of religion.
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One of the voice.
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Well, I'd love to hear that--
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that appeals international
sensibility of course.
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Yeah, and after I said
the same in Chile and in Peru,
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why you know, you have
an international influence
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you can have--
you can talk about
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religious freedom as a country.
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Instead to say nothing
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when you have a big
discussion at the United Nation
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become the voice
of religious freedom.
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Tell me something
that I've thought about
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before and now and then
not particularly with IRLA.
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I've seen an issue
how IRLA is designed
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to project the certain viewpoint
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on religious liberty that
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the Seventh-day Adventist church
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developed from its own history
and for biblical principles.
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But when you bring
so many people together,
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how do you monitor or
direct their participation
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to reflect that viewpoint?
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Yeah, that's a good question.
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Because this-- it could be seen
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sometimes that you give a forum
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to someone with
divergent views from--
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You know, have to
be flexible of course
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but you have
also-- you have also
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to study carefully
what you think about.
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Because you know very
often our understanding
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of religious
freedom is very basic
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you know, religious freedom,
this is religious freedom,
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and which is interesting.
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The Adventists are
probably the best in the world
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and the Adventist church
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is a number one
church in the world
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in term of promotion
of religious freedom.
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But in term of academic
work on religious freedom,
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in term of thinking about
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religious
freedom, deep thinking.
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We are not at the
level of the other,
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you know, the Catholics,
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especially the
Catholic have fabulous expert
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on the field of
religious freedom.
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It means we have a lot of work
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and this is why the next step
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will be to have
in our universities,
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institute of religious freedom,
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because as you said, you
know, if you are not also--
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If you don't have a
very strong roots about
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what you believe
about religious freedom,
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you may follow another way
which is not really the same.
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Or make a forum
for another way--
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Exactly.
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In intended directions.
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And this is what
it has been one of my,
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not my concern
but one of my priority
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is to provide
excellent Adventist scholars,
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but still you don't
have a lot of people
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in our church
studying religious freedom
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at the level of the others.
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I mean we have
still a lot of work to do
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but should not lose these--
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Well, I've even discovered
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and this is a
little ironic side thing
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that our
institutional memory of--
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of the past, in
particular with Liberty Magazine
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and its precursor
A.T Jones not so clear.
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And we need a
continuing academic
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interest to formulas
in to present these views.
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Exactly. To keep them alive.
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Because you know,
there is some differences
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as I say we all
for religious freedom
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but you know,
even about churches,
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you know, the Catholic
Church has a tradition,
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you know, no if
I've done for the error,
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but that was not
just the Catholic Church.
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You know, you
can-- you can see that
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in almost all churches
in the 16th, 17th century.
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Then after you
know, now the question is,
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I remember talking we
have a priest in Bucharest
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and he almost gave
me a lesson you know.
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He said but be
careful religious freedom.
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The theological
root of religious freedom
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is you have
freedom to find the truths,
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that is the
reason why God gave us
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the freedom to find the truth.
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For us it's a little
different then we have to--
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So is he saying that
if you use that freedom
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and you find what
he thinks is error,
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you've misused
the freedom, right?
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Yeah.
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You know, for
me but I think that
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we should really study carefully
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but according to the Protestant
and Adventist tradition.
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You have the freedom
because God created you
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as a human being.
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He gave us a dignity
and among the dignity
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path of the dignity
is the freedom to choose.
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And the right to be wrong.
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And the right to be wrong.
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You know, it makes a difference.
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It means, we have to
go deep to be sure that
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we don't make
confusion because as you said
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from something
which is not correct,
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you can evolve to something
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which has nothing to
do with religious freedom.
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People defend human rights.
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Religious freedom is
a heart of human right,
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but people are
persecuting some religion
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on behalf of human rights.
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That's a contradiction.
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But they don't
see a contradiction.
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So we need to--
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Again, as we said
before this is a crying need
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to really correctly
describe religious liberty.
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We have a great advantage
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and you see it
traveling worldwide.
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Maybe I'm wrong
but I don't think
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you've ever come
across anyone that
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speaks against
religious liberty.
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They just
defined it in some times
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very troublesome ways.
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And so we can come in,
you've got their attention
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but then our
definition can move them--
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I remember also
talking with a friend you know,
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and he said no, no, we are
not against religious freedom.
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We are in favor
of religious freedom
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but your interpretation
of religious freedom
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is not exactly the right one.
00:09:00.56\00:09:03.11
Our interpretation is
good and our interpretation is,
00:09:03.14\00:09:07.99
you know, you should really
limit freedom for crazy people.
00:09:08.02\00:09:11.39
We should not
give, if they're wrong,
00:09:11.42\00:09:13.92
don't give them the
freedom to be wrong.
00:09:13.95\00:09:15.56
You remember the trip
that I went with you to Laos.
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We spoke with the minister
of religion and he claimed that
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they allowed freedom of religion
00:09:21.88\00:09:23.38
but he says we will not
allow naughty activities.
00:09:23.41\00:09:26.42
He used the word
naughty and which in his case
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was giving out
Christian literature
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that was not acceptable.
00:09:31.32\00:09:32.99
And you know, I was in a country
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I visited for the
first time and I remember,
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I had a meeting
with several evangelicals
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to interest them
in our association
00:09:42.10\00:09:45.07
and they were very
supportive of religious freedom.
00:09:45.10\00:09:49.06
Then after they ask me,
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do you have in
your association people
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being member of this religion.
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I said yes, you know, as long as
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they defend
religious freedom for all.
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And they say, sorry we believe
00:10:00.96\00:10:03.47
in religious
freedom but we cannot be
00:10:03.50\00:10:05.15
associate with an association--
00:10:05.18\00:10:07.56
That has them--
00:10:07.59\00:10:08.75
That defend the
right of other people.
00:10:08.78\00:10:11.50
At least they
were honest to say it.
00:10:11.53\00:10:13.75
But often people won't front up.
00:10:13.78\00:10:15.55
And you remember in East Timor,
00:10:15.58\00:10:18.21
you remember when we talk--
00:10:18.24\00:10:20.03
To the president.
00:10:20.06\00:10:21.09
No, no, we talk about the lady
00:10:21.12\00:10:23.08
who presented the
Christian from an island
00:10:23.11\00:10:25.96
and she said you know,
00:10:25.99\00:10:27.06
before these
island were catholic,
00:10:27.09\00:10:29.24
now they're all
evangelical they said,
00:10:29.27\00:10:32.47
Pentecostal, I don't know,
00:10:32.50\00:10:34.25
but you know she said
that something happened,
00:10:34.28\00:10:36.55
a missionary came
from another church
00:10:36.58\00:10:39.53
and he try to
open new church there.
00:10:39.56\00:10:41.76
We should do something.
00:10:41.79\00:10:43.18
Yeah, yeah, use
religious freedom
00:10:43.21\00:10:45.77
to restrict the access.
00:10:45.80\00:10:47.63
And I know down in South Pacific
00:10:47.66\00:10:50.16
where I originally came from
that used to be the pattern.
00:10:50.19\00:10:53.68
The Church of England
would take these sort of--
00:10:53.71\00:10:57.09
these islands and they were--
00:10:57.12\00:10:58.82
they had a fence
around them basically.
00:10:58.85\00:11:00.24
No other
missionary could go there.
00:11:00.27\00:11:01.84
Adventist had
this island and so on.
00:11:01.87\00:11:05.11
That's a very
limited way of looking
00:11:05.14\00:11:06.56
at religious
activity and I don't think
00:11:06.59\00:11:08.16
in the modern
world that's got much--
00:11:08.19\00:11:10.13
No, that's not possible.
00:11:10.16\00:11:11.62
That's not possible and
I think in the modern world
00:11:11.65\00:11:14.22
we understand that
really one of the best way
00:11:14.25\00:11:17.54
for people to live in
peace together is to say,
00:11:17.57\00:11:21.20
is not to say you
don't have the right
00:11:21.23\00:11:23.42
to have another religion,
00:11:23.45\00:11:25.00
is it just to
say you have a right
00:11:25.03\00:11:27.06
because this right has
been given by God to you,
00:11:27.09\00:11:30.69
protected by your
constitution and your country.
00:11:30.72\00:11:33.44
And this is the best
way to live together.
00:11:33.47\00:11:36.11
Yeah, believe in
religious freedom
00:11:36.14\00:11:38.15
not because you--
00:11:38.18\00:11:39.53
you know, I believe
in religious freedom
00:11:39.56\00:11:40.90
because I think really
00:11:40.93\00:11:42.55
when I believe in
religious freedom.
00:11:42.58\00:11:43.95
When I defend
religious freedom I follow,
00:11:43.98\00:11:46.75
I follow Jesus who is my model.
00:11:46.78\00:11:51.80
IRLA there's an acronym for you,
00:11:51.83\00:11:55.17
but in actuality it's more than
00:11:55.20\00:11:56.79
just random
letters of the alphabet
00:11:56.82\00:11:59.63
as the Seventh-day
Adventist churches carry forward
00:11:59.66\00:12:02.22
the International
Religious Liberty Association.
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This is proved to
be a powerful tool
00:12:05.89\00:12:08.82
for informing civil
authorities and professionals
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and lay people
all around the world
00:12:14.10\00:12:17.36
for many years about the
value of religious liberty.
00:12:17.39\00:12:21.09
I remember attending
one of the IRLA events
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in the Dominican
Republic and it was inspiring
00:12:24.41\00:12:27.70
to sit among
hundreds of people there
00:12:27.73\00:12:30.55
for all around the world
dedicated to the principles
00:12:30.58\00:12:33.05
that IRLA exemplifies.
00:12:33.08\00:12:35.47
Was inspiring to
hear representatives
00:12:35.50\00:12:38.22
from different nations get up
00:12:38.25\00:12:39.94
and recite their
commitment to freedom
00:12:39.97\00:12:42.89
that had been
brought into that reality
00:12:42.92\00:12:45.42
by the communion with the IRLA.
00:12:45.45\00:12:48.24
And I know that Dr. John Graz
00:12:48.27\00:12:49.70
has given powerful
leadership for the 20 years
00:12:49.73\00:12:52.92
that he's been
associated with it.
00:12:52.95\00:12:54.83
And I know that
with the Lord's blessing
00:12:54.86\00:12:57.14
and continued leadership,
00:12:57.17\00:12:59.61
it will vindicate
our charter from the Lord
00:12:59.64\00:13:03.85
to proclaim liberty
throughout the land.
00:13:03.88\00:13:07.51
And that means is
everyone should understand
00:13:07.54\00:13:10.24
not just your
fellow church members,
00:13:10.27\00:13:12.16
not just your fellow citizens
but everybody on this globe.
00:13:12.19\00:13:17.00
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:17.03\00:13:19.90