Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000292A
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00:21 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:22 This is the program bringing you news, views, 00:25 and up to date information 00:26 and analysis on religious liberty 00:28 events around the world. 00:30 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:33 And my guest is Dr. John Graz who has several titles 00:38 titles but the one that we want to talk about 00:39 on this program as he's Secretary General 00:41 of the International Religious Liberty Association 00:45 or IRLA, right? 00:46 Thank you very much, Lincoln. 00:48 Pleasure to be with you. 00:49 It's always good to have you on the program. 00:50 This is hardly the first time. 00:53 Let's talk about IRLA. 00:55 What is it? 00:56 We live in a-- well, I gave the full title 01:00 but we live an era of acronyms 01:02 and CIA, FBI, take this 01:07 and well, Homeland security isn't HS for some reason. 01:10 There's no connection with-- 01:11 No, but explain it not just give the title 01:15 what is the International Religious Liberty Association? 01:18 It's the International Religious Liberty Association, 01:20 it has been chattered in 1893 01:26 by Adventist leaders in Battle Creek 01:29 but it follow you know, I know the association 01:32 which was called the National Religious Liberty Association, 01:36 which was chattered in 1899 01:40 and when they saw that people outside of the US 01:42 where also interested by these association 01:46 for religious freedom. 01:47 They changed the name 01:49 and it became the International Religious Liberty Association. 01:52 And I think that was ensconced 01:53 the early Adventist Church 01:55 was moving into the national forum. 01:56 Yeah, exactly and it was-- 01:58 it is one of the oldest religious liberty association 02:04 and in 1946, '48, '46, '48, 02:08 they decided to open the association to all people 02:12 who really defend religious freedom. 02:14 That was gonna be my next question 02:16 because it clearly and it shifted 02:18 from being an Adventist organization, 02:20 the members were involved with too as it is today. 02:25 While it's an Adventist initiative 02:26 many of the office holders 02:28 and members are from other churches 02:31 and not even particularly religious people. 02:34 When you are member of the IRLA, 02:36 you don't represent a church. 02:38 You represent yourself. 02:39 But you know people come from 02:42 different background ideology churches. 02:44 We have people who are Jewish, we have Muslim, 02:47 we have Muslim, we have Christian, Catholic, Protestant 02:50 but the common point they believe in article 18 02:53 and they believe in religious freedom. 02:55 And article 18 you know, we believe in article 18-- 02:58 Tell about it for our viewers about 03:00 the programs they may have heard. 03:01 What does article 18 say? 03:03 This is of the United Nations. 03:06 It was voted in 1948, December 10 in Paris. 03:10 You know, it said that everyone 03:11 has the freedom of conscience, the freedom of belief, 03:14 the freedom of religion. 03:16 And the change of religion too. 03:17 And they give definition of religious freedom, 03:19 what is it this freedom? 03:21 This freedom is-- you have the freedom 03:22 to have a religion or not to have a religion. 03:25 You have the freedom to teach your religion. 03:27 You have the freedom to practice your religion. 03:30 You have the freedom to share your religion 03:33 and also you have the freedom to change your religion. 03:36 This is what it's so important for us. 03:39 Of course it was voted in 1948 03:42 after the World War II and the people had still, 03:46 had still in mind the aura of the II World War, 03:51 with the Holocaust and the persecution 03:54 of the Jews, the Gypsies, the Jehovah's Witnesses. 03:56 Well, that was the same year that 03:57 the state of Israel was established, was it in 1948. 04:00 Yeah, but you know, I don't know 04:03 you had some connection but what-- 04:05 Well, it was a pity when people were thinking very, 04:08 you know, under the international level, 04:09 they were thinking about religious liberty 04:11 and religious rights self determination. 04:13 But at this time of course you had 04:15 at the United Nations about 50 countries 04:18 and today that would be impossible 04:20 to have such article. 04:22 Even if after 1948 you had the lot of convention 04:26 and so on where religious freedom 04:28 against was underlined and supported again, 04:35 but never with the verb, the freedom to change. 04:38 And the freedom to change, it disappeared. 04:41 Well, and we're heading in the opposite direction 04:43 because there's been proposals I know of late at the UN level 04:46 to bring in strong probations against defamation of religion 04:50 and other elements to which you were 04:52 really protective of a prerogative in a region 04:56 but they're not really 04:58 what you'd call general religious liberty. 04:59 And this is what is so important 05:00 to be a part of this debate at the United Nation 05:04 and they have association like the church, 05:06 the Seventh-day Adventist church. 05:08 Both of them are recognized by the United Nation. 05:11 It means we have the right to speak there. 05:13 We have the right to meet 05:15 delegation minister of government that's fabulous 05:18 when you are at the United Nation. 05:20 One of the associates has been pretty much full time. 05:23 Doctor Job is a full time there and the-- 05:26 he met a lot of leaders there 05:28 and when you have a problem around the world, 05:30 you know, the United Nation 05:32 offer you the possibility to meet people 05:35 and when you are part of an association 05:37 which is recognized, you have no problem 05:40 to meet the government 05:41 and to ask to meet the government, 05:43 minister of the government and so on. 05:45 And you are in a good position 05:47 to help people who are persecuted. 05:49 That one section of the association. 05:51 But our association is also working 05:54 in several organizing a number of events 05:58 you know, one we will have we'll be-- 06:05 Yeah, and also, you know, every year 06:06 we have a meeting of expert. 06:08 We have probably the group of the best expert in the world 06:13 talking and studying religious freedom 06:15 and providing a statement every two years. 06:18 A statement which is sent to the UN 06:21 to the religious organization and so on. 06:24 That's a very good group. 06:25 Then we have every year in Washington 06:28 the religious liberty dinner, we organize it. 06:31 And this year it was the 13th religious liberty dinner. 06:35 And it has become an institution in Washington 06:38 but not only in Washington. 06:39 Now, you have several countries 06:41 where they organize also a religious liberty dinner. 06:45 We have symposium, congresses, forum 06:48 and we have a big meeting which is called 06:51 as festival of religious freedom. 06:53 I just come back from the tour in South America 06:56 and I continued with that. 06:57 We did all together festival, congresses, symposium. 07:00 These are exciting moments. 07:03 I know every time you come back, 07:04 you're ramped up, the-- 07:07 you know, it's like outdoor football game 07:08 I think where there's tens of thousands of fans yelling 07:11 for their home team and you get to be with that 07:14 many people all excited about religious freedom. 07:16 Exactly, you know, sometimes people ask me, 07:19 do you need really to organize 07:21 this big meeting for religious freedom? 07:24 You know, we used to see a religious freedom 07:26 as you know, a meeting between experts, 07:29 religious leaders and expert. 07:32 You're not talking about what's going on, 07:34 you know, their law, the philosophy and so on. 07:37 But you know, I came in 2006 07:39 with this idea about religious freedom is for people 07:42 and people should be involved in defending 07:46 and in showing that 07:48 they care about religious freedom. 07:51 And they should show that 07:52 to their governments of their country. 07:54 And one thing which was important for me is, 07:57 people when you live in a country 07:59 where you have religious freedom. 08:01 You just forget that it is a gift 08:04 and that is a precious gift, why? 08:07 Because you know you don't-- 08:08 you did not do anything for that. 08:10 Then what does it mean? 08:11 It means someone else did something. 08:14 Someone maybe give their life, 08:16 some people gave their life for the freedom you have today. 08:19 And, you know, when you go to church 08:23 in several countries, 08:24 you don't have the police around, 08:26 and if the police come it's to protect you, 08:29 not to arrest you. 08:30 What a difference it is with 08:32 so many other country around the world. 08:34 And I said, we should say thank you time to time. 08:36 And it creates an awareness of the situation. 08:39 And how can we say thank you 08:40 in having the largest number of people. 08:43 And we start with filling stadium, 08:44 you know, filling stadium and just come back. 08:46 I think it's a wonderful dynamic. 08:48 I've always been taken, 08:50 well, before I was dealing with religious liberty 08:52 on the true basis of law 08:54 is what you call the social contract. 08:56 Yeah. 08:57 And I believe that that influencing 08:59 a wide variety of the citizens to this positive principle. 09:03 That's the way to build up 09:04 the social contract in this regard to ensure that 09:08 there are good lawyers for religious liberty. 09:09 And it has results. 09:10 If the people out and around are separate 09:12 from a few, I would tell legislators, 09:14 they could give or take away liberty very easily 09:17 without that connection to the public sensibility. 09:20 And you know after the first world festival 09:22 with 45,000 people in Lima, they passed the law 09:26 which recognized all the church, not just one. 09:29 Yes, an immediate result. 09:31 And in Sao Paulo, the city of Sao Paulo, 09:34 UNO decided that May 25 09:36 become the day of religious freedom 09:38 for all the city of Sao Paulo. 09:40 It means, but of course, you know, 09:42 people need to see and now they're working 09:44 on the state commission 09:45 in Sao Paulo on religious freedom. 09:47 I've noticed that of late, there's been a real blossoming 09:51 of religious freedom in Latin America. 09:53 What has caused that? 09:54 What do you think is behind that? 09:55 You know, it took time, it took time. 09:57 I remember when I start, 09:59 you know, religious freedom was totally ignored 10:02 in most of the country of South America. 10:04 First, you know, because, you know, 10:06 the Adventist who has been really the power behind 10:10 the promotion of religious freedom. 10:12 They believe that religious freedom is a communism 10:15 and I have to explain to them that-- 10:17 Well, some people believe that-- 10:19 That has nothing, nothing to do. 10:20 It's not because you'll see me or the leader 10:23 talking with leader from other religion 10:27 that we will change our religion. 10:28 Well, respecting someone else's right 10:30 to believe something is not ecumenism. 10:32 Exactly. 10:33 In the sense of the ecumenical movement 10:34 which has this goal 10:35 to sort of bring a syncretistic union. 10:38 Absolutely not. 10:40 I should say in many ways you know, a communist means 10:43 all must be opposite of religious freedom, 10:45 is the opposite movement. 10:47 Religious freedom is, you have the right to be there 10:49 if you want to be there. 10:50 You have the right to be there, 10:51 if you want to be there. 10:52 The communist say we should be together one, one. 10:55 Religious freedom is to defend plurality, 10:58 religious pluralities, even if you have 11:01 the right to believe that you have the truth, 11:04 but you also have the responsibility 11:07 to accept that all the people think the same way. 11:10 It's a Jesus' philosophy. 11:12 Back to comment that I was making in a point 11:14 that I'm trying to suggest on Latin America. 11:18 Something's changed recently 11:20 and of course the world is dynamic socially, 11:23 social shifts everywhere. 11:24 But I wonder if this sudden flaring-- 11:27 relatively sudden flaring of religious liberty 11:29 in Latin America is because what I observe 11:32 even with you in Dominican Republic, 11:36 I remember hearing the government official say. 11:39 There's basically disestablishment 11:41 of a long standing relationship to one dominant church. 11:45 Yeah. Absolutely. 11:46 And I think there's a cause and effect there. 11:48 They're not persecuting that church hardly. 11:50 In fact in many countries they still has 11:51 a sort of a first among equals situation 11:54 but they're not legally linked anymore 11:57 with one dominant church. 11:58 You know, South America has changed a lot. 12:02 You have more and more evangelicals there. 12:04 You know, Brazil now you have more than 12:06 20, 25, 26% of the population are evangelical 12:10 and especially Pentecostal. 12:12 It means as I ask very often, 12:14 you know, why religious freedom now get the strong support? 12:18 Because you have more, more pluralism. 12:22 Religious pluralism is becoming a fact in South America. 12:25 You are still the domination of one church 12:27 but it is very much challenged. 12:30 And in some other country you have 12:32 40% of evangelical, so 30% 12:35 and they are more and more involved in politics and-- 12:37 So the net effect is that they became very pluralistic 12:40 which in this regard has been 12:42 a great aid to religious freedom. 12:45 Well, we'll take a short break now 12:46 and come back to continue this discussion focusing 12:49 in not just on different things 12:51 and different countries but on the work 12:53 of the International Religious Liberty Association. |
Revised 2015-07-30