Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:21.21\00:00:22.87
This is the program
bringing you news, views,
00:00:22.90\00:00:25.10
and up to date information
00:00:25.13\00:00:26.77
and analysis on
religious liberty
00:00:26.80\00:00:28.67
events around the world.
00:00:28.70\00:00:30.46
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:30.49\00:00:33.88
And my guest is Dr. John
Graz who has several titles
00:00:33.91\00:00:38.17
titles but the one
that we want to talk about
00:00:38.20\00:00:39.89
on this program as
he's Secretary General
00:00:39.92\00:00:41.77
of the International
Religious Liberty Association
00:00:41.80\00:00:44.99
or IRLA, right?
00:00:45.02\00:00:46.27
Thank you very much, Lincoln.
00:00:46.30\00:00:48.46
Pleasure to be with you.
00:00:48.49\00:00:49.59
It's always good to
have you on the program.
00:00:49.62\00:00:50.95
This is hardly the first time.
00:00:50.98\00:00:53.45
Let's talk about IRLA.
00:00:53.48\00:00:55.81
What is it?
00:00:55.84\00:00:56.94
We live in a-- well,
I gave the full title
00:00:56.97\00:01:00.73
but we live an era of acronyms
00:01:00.76\00:01:02.52
and CIA, FBI, take this
00:01:02.55\00:01:07.65
and well, Homeland security
isn't HS for some reason.
00:01:07.68\00:01:10.25
There's no connection with--
00:01:10.28\00:01:11.89
No, but explain it
not just give the title
00:01:11.92\00:01:15.05
what is the International
Religious Liberty Association?
00:01:15.08\00:01:18.29
It's the International
Religious Liberty Association,
00:01:18.32\00:01:20.80
it has been chattered in 1893
00:01:20.83\00:01:26.39
by Adventist
leaders in Battle Creek
00:01:26.42\00:01:29.49
but it follow you
know, I know the association
00:01:29.52\00:01:32.69
which was called the National
Religious Liberty Association,
00:01:32.72\00:01:36.50
which was chattered in 1899
00:01:36.53\00:01:40.10
and when they saw that
people outside of the US
00:01:40.13\00:01:42.69
where also
interested by these association
00:01:42.72\00:01:46.22
for religious freedom.
00:01:46.25\00:01:47.72
They changed the name
00:01:47.75\00:01:49.26
and it became the International
Religious Liberty Association.
00:01:49.29\00:01:52.41
And I think that was ensconced
00:01:52.44\00:01:53.87
the early Adventist Church
00:01:53.90\00:01:55.78
was moving into
the national forum.
00:01:55.81\00:01:56.85
Yeah, exactly and it was--
00:01:56.88\00:01:58.65
it is one of the oldest
religious liberty association
00:01:58.68\00:02:04.03
and in 1946, '48, '46, '48,
00:02:04.06\00:02:08.90
they decided to open the
association to all people
00:02:08.93\00:02:12.75
who really defend
religious freedom.
00:02:12.78\00:02:14.69
That was gonna
be my next question
00:02:14.72\00:02:16.16
because it
clearly and it shifted
00:02:16.19\00:02:17.98
from being an
Adventist organization,
00:02:18.01\00:02:20.54
the members were involved
with too as it is today.
00:02:20.57\00:02:25.11
While it's an
Adventist initiative
00:02:25.14\00:02:26.95
many of the office holders
00:02:26.98\00:02:28.40
and members are
from other churches
00:02:28.43\00:02:31.10
and not even
particularly religious people.
00:02:31.13\00:02:34.91
When you are member of the IRLA,
00:02:34.94\00:02:36.48
you don't represent a church.
00:02:36.51\00:02:38.21
You represent yourself.
00:02:38.24\00:02:39.76
But you know people come from
00:02:39.79\00:02:42.69
different
background ideology churches.
00:02:42.72\00:02:44.77
We have people who are
Jewish, we have Muslim,
00:02:44.80\00:02:47.37
we have Muslim, we have
Christian, Catholic, Protestant
00:02:47.40\00:02:50.26
but the common point
they believe in article 18
00:02:50.29\00:02:53.90
and they believe
in religious freedom.
00:02:53.93\00:02:55.49
And article 18 you know,
we believe in article 18--
00:02:55.52\00:02:58.77
Tell about it
for our viewers about
00:02:58.80\00:03:00.80
the programs
they may have heard.
00:03:00.83\00:03:01.94
What does article 18 say?
00:03:01.97\00:03:03.54
This is of the United Nations.
00:03:03.57\00:03:06.13
It was voted in
1948, December 10 in Paris.
00:03:06.16\00:03:10.13
You know, it said that everyone
00:03:10.16\00:03:11.84
has the freedom of conscience,
the freedom of belief,
00:03:11.87\00:03:14.89
the freedom of religion.
00:03:14.92\00:03:16.40
And the change of religion too.
00:03:16.43\00:03:17.84
And they give
definition of religious freedom,
00:03:17.87\00:03:19.91
what is it this freedom?
00:03:19.94\00:03:21.06
This freedom is--
you have the freedom
00:03:21.09\00:03:22.59
to have a religion or
not to have a religion.
00:03:22.62\00:03:25.08
You have the freedom
to teach your religion.
00:03:25.11\00:03:27.44
You have the freedom
to practice your religion.
00:03:27.47\00:03:30.40
You have the freedom
to share your religion
00:03:30.43\00:03:33.47
and also you have the
freedom to change your religion.
00:03:33.50\00:03:36.91
This is what it's
so important for us.
00:03:36.94\00:03:39.02
Of course it was voted in 1948
00:03:39.05\00:03:42.83
after the World War II
and the people had still,
00:03:42.86\00:03:46.56
had still in mind the
aura of the II World War,
00:03:46.59\00:03:51.11
with the Holocaust
and the persecution
00:03:51.14\00:03:54.37
of the Jews, the Gypsies,
the Jehovah's Witnesses.
00:03:54.40\00:03:56.83
Well, that was
the same year that
00:03:56.86\00:03:57.94
the state of Israel was
established, was it in 1948.
00:03:57.97\00:04:00.43
Yeah, but you know, I don't know
00:04:00.46\00:04:03.31
you had some
connection but what--
00:04:03.34\00:04:05.32
Well, it was a pity when
people were thinking very,
00:04:05.35\00:04:08.56
you know, under the
international level,
00:04:08.59\00:04:09.90
they were thinking
about religious liberty
00:04:09.93\00:04:11.51
and religious
rights self determination.
00:04:11.54\00:04:13.76
But at this time
of course you had
00:04:13.79\00:04:15.44
at the United
Nations about 50 countries
00:04:15.47\00:04:18.17
and today that
would be impossible
00:04:18.20\00:04:20.36
to have such article.
00:04:20.39\00:04:22.27
Even if after 1948 you
had the lot of convention
00:04:22.30\00:04:26.88
and so on where
religious freedom
00:04:26.91\00:04:28.71
against was
underlined and supported again,
00:04:28.74\00:04:34.97
but never with the
verb, the freedom to change.
00:04:35.00\00:04:38.62
And the freedom to
change, it disappeared.
00:04:38.65\00:04:41.18
Well, and we're heading
in the opposite direction
00:04:41.21\00:04:43.18
because there's been proposals
I know of late at the UN level
00:04:43.21\00:04:46.85
to bring in strong probations
against defamation of religion
00:04:46.88\00:04:50.29
and other
elements to which you were
00:04:50.32\00:04:52.50
really protective of a
prerogative in a region
00:04:52.53\00:04:56.58
but they're not really
00:04:56.61\00:04:58.01
what you'd call
general religious liberty.
00:04:58.04\00:04:59.47
And this is what is so important
00:04:59.50\00:05:00.96
to be a part of this
debate at the United Nation
00:05:00.99\00:05:04.01
and they have
association like the church,
00:05:04.04\00:05:06.19
the Seventh-day
Adventist church.
00:05:06.22\00:05:08.01
Both of them are
recognized by the United Nation.
00:05:08.04\00:05:11.27
It means we have the
right to speak there.
00:05:11.30\00:05:13.62
We have the right to meet
00:05:13.65\00:05:15.42
delegation minister of
government that's fabulous
00:05:15.45\00:05:18.40
when you are at
the United Nation.
00:05:18.43\00:05:20.65
One of the associates has
been pretty much full time.
00:05:20.68\00:05:23.17
Doctor Job is a
full time there and the--
00:05:23.20\00:05:26.59
he met a lot of leaders there
00:05:26.62\00:05:28.79
and when you have a
problem around the world,
00:05:28.82\00:05:30.74
you know, the United Nation
00:05:30.77\00:05:32.65
offer you the
possibility to meet people
00:05:32.68\00:05:35.33
and when you are
part of an association
00:05:35.36\00:05:37.91
which is
recognized, you have no problem
00:05:37.94\00:05:40.29
to meet the government
00:05:40.32\00:05:41.59
and to ask to
meet the government,
00:05:41.62\00:05:43.56
minister of the
government and so on.
00:05:43.59\00:05:45.11
And you are in a good position
00:05:45.14\00:05:47.11
to help people
who are persecuted.
00:05:47.14\00:05:49.69
That one section
of the association.
00:05:49.72\00:05:51.87
But our
association is also working
00:05:51.90\00:05:54.76
in several
organizing a number of events
00:05:54.79\00:05:58.28
you know, one we
will have we'll be--
00:05:58.31\00:06:05.16
Yeah, and also,
you know, every year
00:06:05.19\00:06:06.70
we have a meeting of expert.
00:06:06.73\00:06:08.63
We have probably the group
of the best expert in the world
00:06:08.66\00:06:13.02
talking and
studying religious freedom
00:06:13.05\00:06:15.12
and providing a
statement every two years.
00:06:15.15\00:06:18.18
A statement
which is sent to the UN
00:06:18.21\00:06:21.25
to the religious
organization and so on.
00:06:21.28\00:06:24.31
That's a very good group.
00:06:24.34\00:06:25.83
Then we have
every year in Washington
00:06:25.86\00:06:28.57
the religious liberty
dinner, we organize it.
00:06:28.60\00:06:31.64
And this year it was the
13th religious liberty dinner.
00:06:31.67\00:06:35.82
And it has become an
institution in Washington
00:06:35.85\00:06:38.51
but not only in Washington.
00:06:38.54\00:06:39.83
Now, you have several countries
00:06:39.86\00:06:41.66
where they organize also
a religious liberty dinner.
00:06:41.69\00:06:45.34
We have
symposium, congresses, forum
00:06:45.37\00:06:48.07
and we have a big
meeting which is called
00:06:48.10\00:06:51.13
as festival of
religious freedom.
00:06:51.16\00:06:53.23
I just come back from
the tour in South America
00:06:53.26\00:06:56.40
and I continued with that.
00:06:56.43\00:06:57.75
We did all together
festival, congresses, symposium.
00:06:57.78\00:07:00.92
These are exciting moments.
00:07:00.95\00:07:03.04
I know every time you come back,
00:07:03.07\00:07:04.75
you're ramped up, the--
00:07:04.78\00:07:07.00
you know, it's like
outdoor football game
00:07:07.03\00:07:08.35
I think where there's tens
of thousands of fans yelling
00:07:08.38\00:07:11.58
for their home team
and you get to be with that
00:07:11.61\00:07:14.17
many people all excited
about religious freedom.
00:07:14.20\00:07:16.80
Exactly, you know,
sometimes people ask me,
00:07:16.83\00:07:19.87
do you need really to organize
00:07:19.90\00:07:21.87
this big meeting
for religious freedom?
00:07:21.90\00:07:24.10
You know, we used to
see a religious freedom
00:07:24.13\00:07:26.41
as you know, a
meeting between experts,
00:07:26.44\00:07:29.48
religious leaders and expert.
00:07:29.51\00:07:32.20
You're not talking
about what's going on,
00:07:32.23\00:07:34.07
you know, their law,
the philosophy and so on.
00:07:34.10\00:07:37.30
But you know, I came in 2006
00:07:37.33\00:07:39.96
with this idea about
religious freedom is for people
00:07:39.99\00:07:42.76
and people should be
involved in defending
00:07:42.79\00:07:46.84
and in showing that
00:07:46.87\00:07:48.48
they care about
religious freedom.
00:07:48.51\00:07:51.23
And they should show that
00:07:51.26\00:07:52.29
to their
governments of their country.
00:07:52.32\00:07:54.46
And one thing which
was important for me is,
00:07:54.49\00:07:57.44
people when you
live in a country
00:07:57.47\00:07:59.48
where you have
religious freedom.
00:07:59.51\00:08:01.51
You just forget
that it is a gift
00:08:01.54\00:08:04.19
and that is a
precious gift, why?
00:08:04.22\00:08:07.14
Because you know you don't--
00:08:07.17\00:08:08.42
you did not do
anything for that.
00:08:08.45\00:08:10.47
Then what does it mean?
00:08:10.50\00:08:11.53
It means someone
else did something.
00:08:11.56\00:08:14.71
Someone maybe give their life,
00:08:14.74\00:08:16.38
some people gave their life
for the freedom you have today.
00:08:16.41\00:08:19.37
And, you know,
when you go to church
00:08:19.40\00:08:23.00
in several countries,
00:08:23.03\00:08:24.45
you don't have
the police around,
00:08:24.48\00:08:26.71
and if the police
come it's to protect you,
00:08:26.74\00:08:28.97
not to arrest you.
00:08:29.00\00:08:30.76
What a difference it is with
00:08:30.79\00:08:32.72
so many other
country around the world.
00:08:32.75\00:08:34.54
And I said, we should
say thank you time to time.
00:08:34.57\00:08:36.33
And it creates an
awareness of the situation.
00:08:36.36\00:08:38.99
And how can we say thank you
00:08:39.02\00:08:40.46
in having the
largest number of people.
00:08:40.49\00:08:43.06
And we start
with filling stadium,
00:08:43.09\00:08:44.96
you know, filling
stadium and just come back.
00:08:44.99\00:08:46.34
I think it's a
wonderful dynamic.
00:08:46.37\00:08:48.92
I've always been taken,
00:08:48.95\00:08:50.42
well, before I was
dealing with religious liberty
00:08:50.45\00:08:52.39
on the true basis of law
00:08:52.42\00:08:54.71
is what you call
the social contract.
00:08:54.74\00:08:56.02
Yeah.
00:08:56.05\00:08:57.12
And I believe
that that influencing
00:08:57.15\00:08:59.34
a wide variety of the citizens
to this positive principle.
00:08:59.37\00:09:03.45
That's the way to build up
00:09:03.48\00:09:04.65
the social contract in
this regard to ensure that
00:09:04.68\00:09:08.02
there are good
lawyers for religious liberty.
00:09:08.05\00:09:09.62
And it has results.
00:09:09.65\00:09:10.69
If the people out
and around are separate
00:09:10.72\00:09:12.54
from a few, I
would tell legislators,
00:09:12.57\00:09:14.66
they could give or take
away liberty very easily
00:09:14.69\00:09:17.91
without that connection
to the public sensibility.
00:09:17.94\00:09:20.40
And you know after
the first world festival
00:09:20.43\00:09:22.92
with 45,000 people in
Lima, they passed the law
00:09:22.95\00:09:26.93
which recognized all
the church, not just one.
00:09:26.96\00:09:29.48
Yes, an immediate result.
00:09:29.51\00:09:31.21
And in Sao Paulo,
the city of Sao Paulo,
00:09:31.24\00:09:34.55
UNO decided that May 25
00:09:34.58\00:09:36.71
become the day
of religious freedom
00:09:36.74\00:09:38.52
for all the city of Sao Paulo.
00:09:38.55\00:09:40.33
It means, but of
course, you know,
00:09:40.36\00:09:42.30
people need to see
and now they're working
00:09:42.33\00:09:44.41
on the state commission
00:09:44.44\00:09:45.72
in Sao Paulo on
religious freedom.
00:09:45.75\00:09:47.61
I've noticed that of late,
there's been a real blossoming
00:09:47.64\00:09:51.02
of religious
freedom in Latin America.
00:09:51.05\00:09:53.33
What has caused that?
00:09:53.36\00:09:54.39
What do you
think is behind that?
00:09:54.42\00:09:55.69
You know, it took
time, it took time.
00:09:55.72\00:09:57.66
I remember when I start,
00:09:57.69\00:09:59.22
you know, religious
freedom was totally ignored
00:09:59.25\00:10:02.13
in most of the
country of South America.
00:10:02.16\00:10:04.39
First, you know,
because, you know,
00:10:04.42\00:10:06.21
the Adventist who has
been really the power behind
00:10:06.24\00:10:10.17
the promotion of
religious freedom.
00:10:10.20\00:10:12.33
They believe that
religious freedom is a communism
00:10:12.36\00:10:15.82
and I have to
explain to them that--
00:10:15.85\00:10:17.89
Well, some people believe that--
00:10:17.92\00:10:19.07
That has nothing, nothing to do.
00:10:19.10\00:10:20.90
It's not because
you'll see me or the leader
00:10:20.93\00:10:23.77
talking with
leader from other religion
00:10:23.80\00:10:26.98
that we will
change our religion.
00:10:27.01\00:10:28.94
Well, respecting
someone else's right
00:10:28.97\00:10:30.59
to believe
something is not ecumenism.
00:10:30.62\00:10:32.20
Exactly.
00:10:32.23\00:10:33.35
In the sense of
the ecumenical movement
00:10:33.38\00:10:34.78
which has this goal
00:10:34.81\00:10:35.84
to sort of bring a
syncretistic union.
00:10:35.87\00:10:38.94
Absolutely not.
00:10:38.97\00:10:40.54
I should say in many ways
you know, a communist means
00:10:40.57\00:10:43.42
all must be opposite
of religious freedom,
00:10:43.45\00:10:45.49
is the opposite movement.
00:10:45.52\00:10:47.00
Religious freedom is, you
have the right to be there
00:10:47.03\00:10:49.33
if you want to be there.
00:10:49.36\00:10:50.51
You have the right to be there,
00:10:50.54\00:10:51.68
if you want to be there.
00:10:51.71\00:10:52.81
The communist say we
should be together one, one.
00:10:52.84\00:10:55.92
Religious freedom
is to defend plurality,
00:10:55.95\00:10:58.83
religious
pluralities, even if you have
00:10:58.86\00:11:01.25
the right to believe
that you have the truth,
00:11:01.28\00:11:04.34
but you also have
the responsibility
00:11:04.37\00:11:07.34
to accept that all the
people think the same way.
00:11:07.37\00:11:10.67
It's a Jesus' philosophy.
00:11:10.70\00:11:12.56
Back to comment that
I was making in a point
00:11:12.59\00:11:14.91
that I'm trying to
suggest on Latin America.
00:11:14.94\00:11:18.38
Something's changed recently
00:11:18.41\00:11:20.85
and of course the
world is dynamic socially,
00:11:20.88\00:11:23.26
social shifts everywhere.
00:11:23.29\00:11:24.49
But I wonder if
this sudden flaring--
00:11:24.52\00:11:27.30
relatively sudden
flaring of religious liberty
00:11:27.33\00:11:29.40
in Latin America is
because what I observe
00:11:29.43\00:11:31.99
even with you in
Dominican Republic,
00:11:32.02\00:11:36.93
I remember hearing the
government official say.
00:11:36.96\00:11:39.70
There's
basically disestablishment
00:11:39.73\00:11:41.75
of a long standing relationship
to one dominant church.
00:11:41.78\00:11:44.98
Yeah. Absolutely.
00:11:45.01\00:11:46.04
And I think there's a
cause and effect there.
00:11:46.07\00:11:47.99
They're not
persecuting that church hardly.
00:11:48.02\00:11:49.98
In fact in many
countries they still has
00:11:50.01\00:11:51.78
a sort of a first
among equals situation
00:11:51.81\00:11:54.25
but they're not
legally linked anymore
00:11:54.28\00:11:57.40
with one dominant church.
00:11:57.43\00:11:58.63
You know, South
America has changed a lot.
00:11:58.66\00:12:02.35
You have more and
more evangelicals there.
00:12:02.38\00:12:04.79
You know, Brazil
now you have more than
00:12:04.82\00:12:06.68
20, 25, 26% of the
population are evangelical
00:12:06.71\00:12:10.95
and especially Pentecostal.
00:12:10.98\00:12:12.62
It means as I ask very often,
00:12:12.65\00:12:14.89
you know, why religious freedom
now get the strong support?
00:12:14.92\00:12:18.65
Because you have
more, more pluralism.
00:12:18.68\00:12:22.07
Religious pluralism is becoming
a fact in South America.
00:12:22.10\00:12:25.41
You are still the
domination of one church
00:12:25.44\00:12:27.67
but it is very much challenged.
00:12:27.70\00:12:30.31
And in some
other country you have
00:12:30.34\00:12:32.11
40% of evangelical, so 30%
00:12:32.14\00:12:35.17
and they are more and
more involved in politics and--
00:12:35.20\00:12:37.59
So the net effect is that
they became very pluralistic
00:12:37.62\00:12:40.45
which in this regard has been
00:12:40.48\00:12:42.96
a great aid to
religious freedom.
00:12:42.99\00:12:45.02
Well, we'll take
a short break now
00:12:45.05\00:12:46.53
and come back to continue
this discussion focusing
00:12:46.56\00:12:49.42
in not just on different things
00:12:49.45\00:12:51.69
and different
countries but on the work
00:12:51.72\00:12:53.17
of the International
Religious Liberty Association.
00:12:53.20\00:12:57.22