Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000291A
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00:21 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:23 This is a program bringing you news, views, 00:25 discussion up to date information 00:27 and analysis on religious liberty events 00:30 around the world. 00:31 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:35 And my special guest on this program is Dr. John Graz. 00:38 Welcome, John. 00:39 It's nice to be with you, Lincoln. 00:40 You've got many hats, many titles. 00:42 You've headed up the religious liberty 00:44 work for the Seventh-day Adventist church 00:46 for what-- how many years now? 00:47 About 20 years. 00:48 Twenty years at the headquarters. 00:51 You've been the Secretary General 00:53 of the International Religious Liberty Association. 00:55 Yes. 00:56 And the Secretary General 00:57 of the Christian World Communion. 00:58 Yeah, for 12 years. Twelve years. 01:00 And for the International 01:02 Religious Liberty Association for 20 years. 01:05 Yeah. 01:06 So not just a lot of hats, a lot of traveling 01:09 and I've done a little bit with you-- 01:11 Done a lot of event and a lot of blessing too. 01:15 Yeah. 01:17 But the world has been your oyster as they say 01:19 on religious liberty and I know 01:21 you've even the last few weeks 01:23 you've been quite a few places down Latin America. 01:26 Oh, yes, that was my last tour maybe we will talk again, 01:29 but that was a fabulous tour in several countries 01:32 in North America-- North Africa. 01:34 Oh, no, sorry South I mean-- Yes. 01:37 You know, I mixed. 01:38 Now I could remember back in the '90s 01:41 when the Soviet Union collapsed, 01:43 George Bush Senior was bragging 01:46 and exalting about how democracy is breaking out 01:49 all over with religious liberty? 01:52 Do you think religious liberty is breaking out all over 01:54 or is it a mixed bag at best? 01:57 Although I would like to share this vision, you know, 01:59 but you know, it was, I remember when I start 02:02 in 1995 we were really full of hope. 02:06 You know, the communist world collapsed 02:08 and you had more and more freedom, 02:10 religious freedom in eastern part of Europe 02:14 and also in Russia. 02:15 Yeah, because under communism there 02:17 had been quite severe restrictions. 02:19 Absolutely, yeah, less than it was 60 years ago 02:23 about that was still very difficult. 02:26 But you know, we thought that everything will be possible. 02:28 You remember, you know, we even the Adventist church 02:31 organized evangelistic campaign in Moscow 02:34 in Kremlin and so and that was-- 02:36 And many people did come in. 02:38 Many people and that was really people 02:40 who have very interested about religion 02:42 but unfortunately I remember their way back, 02:46 you know, started in 1998 02:49 when we had the world conference in-- 02:52 that was in New Delhi 02:54 and good delegation came from Russia. 02:56 And they said, you know, we see now 02:59 that there are some reaction that would be very difficult 03:02 to keep the freedom we have. 03:04 In 1993 you know, reaction again send, 03:07 we were very close to a new law in 03:11 1998, 1999, 2003 03:15 then after 2003 you know, 03:17 we had restriction after restriction 03:20 after restriction 03:22 in the state of religious freedom. 03:24 Tell me unless I've got it wrong, 03:25 it seems to me there were two phases 03:27 post to communism. 03:29 The first was a sort of a reaction 03:31 to foreign religious influence 03:33 and then it got more particular. 03:35 It was a protective mechanism 03:37 because these an orthodox church 03:39 that reassume its role and it's the state religion 03:42 and they try to exclude. 03:44 Absolutely, you have the role of the main church there. 03:47 You know, they were persecuted 03:49 and suddenly they have freedom 03:51 and of course in their I.D, 03:53 you know, they were the Christian. 03:54 They are in this part of the world 03:56 and other Christians from other countries 03:58 should have helped them and not to come 04:01 and try to build their own church. 04:03 And they were very disappointed 04:04 when they see so many Christian coming 04:06 and trying to build their own organization, 04:08 their own church without even sometime pay tribute to them 04:12 and recognize what they did in the past. 04:16 And of course they reacted and they-- 04:20 And that continued till the present day, hasn't isn't? 04:22 And they reacted 04:24 and they became more and more influent 04:26 and now they're very, very, close to the power. 04:29 And they are able to really to control 04:31 of the religious life 04:33 or the religious world in their country. 04:35 I saw something on YouTube the other day from the Ukraine. 04:40 There was some Seventh-day Adventist 04:42 having a little booth at a county fare 04:45 with some books on it. 04:46 And here comes the precession 04:47 lead by the Eastern Orthodox priest 04:50 waving his censer enough and they descended on, 04:52 one of the priest overturns the books 04:54 and then it turns sort of nasty. 04:56 It did happen several years, several years ago 04:58 not just few weeks ago but that's true you know, 05:03 it gives an idea about the situation there. 05:06 Religious minorities are not persecuted 05:09 as they were in the past but they're limited you know, 05:12 their freedom are limited. 05:13 They are under severe restriction. 05:15 They cannot preach openly. 05:18 They have to do that in their own church, 05:20 that's difficult for them to built new churches and so on. 05:24 But even with what you've today, 05:27 it's not exactly the same that what happened you know, 05:30 50, 60, 70 years ago during the communist time 05:34 where the state control totally the religious life. 05:38 But it's a different sort of restriction 05:39 but neither one is ideal, is it? 05:41 No. 05:42 And, you know the principle that all people 05:46 and all religions have to be free to upright 05:48 for they truly believe in religious freedom. 05:51 Just because one group has 05:52 freedom and privilege for their faith, 05:55 it's not really good in the overall picture. 05:57 Which is interesting in Russia and talk-- 06:00 if you want to talk about the Adventist church 06:02 they had always had good relation, 06:05 at least relation with their government. 06:07 It has probably saved them of being 06:09 totally persecuted even now. 06:11 They are recognized by the government. 06:14 They have relations with the main church. 06:17 They are member of the Congress of 06:20 Religious Organization. 06:21 It means we maintain really a regular relations 06:25 and communications with the main church 06:28 and with the government. 06:30 Of course it doesn't mean 06:32 we don't have restriction like others 06:35 but still, you know, there are some space of freedom 06:39 and we cannot compare with what happened. 06:41 And we can always hope for further improvement. 06:44 Also something interesting. 06:45 You know, few years ago, 06:48 not few years during the time of the communist system, 06:52 Russia was an atheist country and persecute religious people. 06:57 But today, you know, the president of Russia is, 07:00 has become the defender of Christians around the world. 07:04 The defender of persecuted Christians. 07:07 I think he's the only leaders of the western countries 07:12 to say publicly that Christian should not be persecuted. 07:16 They have to be defended. 07:17 What a change. It's incredible. 07:19 That's wonderful. Yeah. 07:20 Of course, there is a political background 07:24 and so on but that's interesting to see 07:26 that in 60 years, 70 years you know, 07:29 a country can change. 07:30 Certainly the veneer of communism 07:34 is peeled away pretty quickly in Russia and that is good. 07:37 Although it does make me think of the Crimean War 07:40 where Russia, it all started with issues 07:44 in the holy land under the Ottoman Turks 07:47 and Russia wanted to be the champions 07:49 and protectors of Orthodox Christians. 07:52 England wanted to be the champion 07:53 and protector of Protestants. 07:55 France wanted to be the champion 07:56 and protector of Catholics 07:59 and the end result was they all fought each other 08:03 in the biggest war before World War I. 08:06 But it is good and I hadn't even realized 08:08 that Vladimir Putin has been so vocal 08:11 in defending Christian's rights. 08:13 The Orthodox Church too of course. 08:15 I'm sure his emphasis is strongly-- 08:18 Yeah, because you know, of course you have also 08:20 a lot of Orthodox in countries where persecution 08:23 is really very, very hard today. 08:25 And coming back to your question. 08:28 No, unfortunately the world is not better than it was 08:31 in the past about religious freedom. 08:33 I have to say it is even worse than it was in the past. 08:39 Yeah, well, we often quote, 08:41 I know you do too that pew forum study of recent years. 08:44 Yeah. 08:45 70-75% of the world's population 08:49 exists under regimes where there is 08:51 severe restrictions of religious liberty. 08:53 And about you know according to the US Commission 08:57 for Religious Freedom 08:58 and also the department of state 09:00 about 19 countries are really 09:04 not respecting religious freedom. 09:05 But in fact it's more than that. 09:07 When you see the list they put or they set up 09:11 that you can see that several countries are missing 09:15 and there are more than-- 09:17 I should say about 40 countries, 09:19 in about 40 countries around the world. 09:21 You have severe restriction of religious freedom 09:24 but in some countries it's really, 09:27 it's worst than it has ever been in the past. 09:29 Yeah. This is not a good thing. 09:32 And yet the irony is you're not within those countries. 09:36 Very often the people belonging to the majority religion 09:38 that there is a quite up with the state. 09:41 They may feel no sense of restriction. 09:43 Yeah. They feel privileged. 09:45 Yeah. 09:46 Their religion is protected and fine 09:47 but the judgment from the outside 09:50 in the view of general religious liberty 09:52 is quite severe that this is a country 09:53 that will not allow a divergent religious opinion 09:56 or in the case of Saudi Arabia, 09:58 they wouldn't let them their 09:59 citizens change to any religion. 10:01 Yeah, but you know, that's a short term 10:06 I should say vision because even if you are 10:09 member of the national religion, 10:12 even if you are on the side of the majority. 10:15 If one day you disagree with the mainline 10:19 even if it is your religion, you will be in trouble 10:22 and you may be persecuted. 10:24 And yet a Muslim are persecuted 10:26 in Muslim country, in Islamic countries. 10:28 It's a point I was making, people sometimes miss that. 10:30 And Christian have been persecuted 10:32 in Christian countries too in the past, 10:34 a terrible persecution. 10:36 If you are dissident, if you don't want to follow 10:40 the mainline, you can be persecuted 10:43 like heretics or like apostates. 10:46 Yeah, so what's the answer to this because, you know, 10:49 we stand for what in some ways 10:52 you can trace to a civil constrict of religious liberty, 10:56 but when someone's in a religious context, 10:59 it's very hard to avoid this idea 11:01 that you have the truth and that anyone else 11:03 by definition is you could use a harsh word a heretic 11:08 or spiritual danger. 11:10 It's very hard in that context to sort of grant the right to-- 11:14 to the wrong view to flourish. 11:17 Yeah. Absolutely. 11:18 And we cross that divide between the nice theory 11:21 and yet people that are in the religious context 11:23 for them to grant this freedom. 11:24 That's a very good viewpoint you know, 11:27 and we try when in defending religious freedom, 11:30 we try to explain people that 11:33 you can have a strong conviction. 11:36 You can believe that you have the truth 11:39 and you can believe also that you have to share the truths, 11:42 but at the same time you have to live with all the people 11:45 and you have respect them 11:47 and to let them the same right you have. 11:51 It means you have accept the belief 11:53 the same about their truths, 11:55 even if you believe I have the truths you know, 11:57 what I believe is the truths. 11:59 Maybe it comes down to what was 12:01 in one of the documents out of Rome 12:03 that wasn't talking about this narrowly 12:05 but they mentioned the principle of reciprocity. 12:09 Maybe a lot of religious liberty 12:10 comes to in the reciprocity granting to others 12:13 what you want for yourself. 12:15 Yeah, absolutely if not you cannot leave in community 12:18 you cannot leave with all people 12:21 and what will be the benefit? 12:22 You will won't pass all your time persecuting people 12:25 because you believe they don't have the truth. 12:28 You know, its so oppose to the image 12:32 and the revelation we are from God. 12:34 And its not just that they don't have the truth. 12:36 Its often seen that their view of the truth 12:39 is a direct threat to your view 12:41 and that we have to got against. 12:42 We'll take a short break and be right back 12:44 after this with a discussion with Dr. John Graz 12:46 on the world of religious liberty. |
Revised 2015-07-30