Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
bringing you news, views,
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discussion up
to date information
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and analysis on
religious liberty events
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around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my special guest on
this program is Dr. John Graz.
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Welcome, John.
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It's nice to be
with you, Lincoln.
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You've got many
hats, many titles.
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You've headed up
the religious liberty
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work for the
Seventh-day Adventist church
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for what-- how many years now?
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About 20 years.
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Twenty years at
the headquarters.
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You've been the
Secretary General
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of the International
Religious Liberty Association.
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Yes.
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And the Secretary General
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of the
Christian World Communion.
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Yeah, for 12
years. Twelve years.
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And for the International
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Religious Liberty
Association for 20 years.
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Yeah.
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So not just a lot of
hats, a lot of traveling
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and I've done a
little bit with you--
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Done a lot of event
and a lot of blessing too.
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Yeah.
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But the world has been
your oyster as they say
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on religious liberty and I know
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you've even the last few weeks
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you've been quite a few
places down Latin America.
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Oh, yes, that was my last
tour maybe we will talk again,
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but that was a fabulous
tour in several countries
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in North America-- North Africa.
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Oh, no, sorry
South I mean-- Yes.
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You know, I mixed.
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Now I could
remember back in the '90s
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when the Soviet Union collapsed,
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George Bush Senior was bragging
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and exalting about how
democracy is breaking out
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all over with religious liberty?
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Do you think religious
liberty is breaking out all over
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or is it a mixed bag at best?
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Although I would like to
share this vision, you know,
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but you know, it was,
I remember when I start
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in 1995 we were
really full of hope.
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You know, the
communist world collapsed
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and you had more
and more freedom,
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religious freedom in
eastern part of Europe
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and also in Russia.
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Yeah, because
under communism there
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had been quite
severe restrictions.
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Absolutely, yeah, less
than it was 60 years ago
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about that was
still very difficult.
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But you know, we thought that
everything will be possible.
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You remember, you know,
we even the Adventist church
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organized
evangelistic campaign in Moscow
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in Kremlin and so and that was--
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And many people did come in.
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Many people and
that was really people
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who have very
interested about religion
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but unfortunately I
remember their way back,
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you know, started in 1998
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when we had the
world conference in--
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that was in New Delhi
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and good
delegation came from Russia.
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And they said,
you know, we see now
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that there are some reaction
that would be very difficult
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to keep the freedom we have.
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In 1993 you know,
reaction again send,
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we were very
close to a new law in
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1998, 1999, 2003
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then after 2003 you know,
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we had
restriction after restriction
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after restriction
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in the state of
religious freedom.
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Tell me unless
I've got it wrong,
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it seems to me
there were two phases
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post to communism.
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The first was a
sort of a reaction
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to foreign religious influence
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and then it got more particular.
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It was a protective mechanism
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because these an orthodox church
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that reassume its role
and it's the state religion
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and they try to exclude.
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Absolutely, you have the
role of the main church there.
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You know, they were persecuted
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and suddenly they have freedom
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and of course in their I.D,
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you know, they
were the Christian.
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They are in this
part of the world
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and other
Christians from other countries
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should have helped
them and not to come
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and try to build
their own church.
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And they were very disappointed
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when they see so
many Christian coming
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and trying to build
their own organization,
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their own church without even
sometime pay tribute to them
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and recognize what
they did in the past.
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And of course
they reacted and they--
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And that continued till
the present day, hasn't isn't?
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And they reacted
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and they became
more and more influent
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and now they're very,
very, close to the power.
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And they are able
to really to control
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of the religious life
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or the religious
world in their country.
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I saw something on YouTube
the other day from the Ukraine.
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There was some
Seventh-day Adventist
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having a little
booth at a county fare
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with some books on it.
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And here comes the precession
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lead by the
Eastern Orthodox priest
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waving his censer
enough and they descended on,
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one of the priest
overturns the books
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and then it turns sort of nasty.
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It did happen several
years, several years ago
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not just few weeks ago
but that's true you know,
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it gives an idea
about the situation there.
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Religious
minorities are not persecuted
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as they were in the past
but they're limited you know,
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their freedom are limited.
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They are under
severe restriction.
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They cannot preach openly.
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They have to do
that in their own church,
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that's difficult for them to
built new churches and so on.
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But even with what you've today,
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it's not exactly the same
that what happened you know,
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50, 60, 70 years ago
during the communist time
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where the state control
totally the religious life.
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But it's a
different sort of restriction
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but neither one is ideal, is it?
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No.
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And, you know the
principle that all people
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and all religions
have to be free to upright
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for they truly
believe in religious freedom.
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Just because one group has
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freedom and
privilege for their faith,
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it's not really good
in the overall picture.
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Which is
interesting in Russia and talk--
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if you want to talk
about the Adventist church
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they had always
had good relation,
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at least relation
with their government.
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It has probably
saved them of being
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totally persecuted even now.
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They are
recognized by the government.
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They have relations
with the main church.
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They are member
of the Congress of
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Religious Organization.
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It means we maintain
really a regular relations
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and communications
with the main church
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and with the government.
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Of course it doesn't mean
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we don't have
restriction like others
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but still, you know,
there are some space of freedom
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and we cannot
compare with what happened.
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And we can always hope
for further improvement.
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Also something interesting.
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You know, few years ago,
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not few years during the
time of the communist system,
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Russia was an atheist country
and persecute religious people.
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But today, you know,
the president of Russia is,
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has become the defender of
Christians around the world.
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The defender of
persecuted Christians.
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I think he's the only
leaders of the western countries
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to say publicly that Christian
should not be persecuted.
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They have to be defended.
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What a change. It's incredible.
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That's wonderful. Yeah.
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Of course, there is
a political background
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and so on but
that's interesting to see
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that in 60 years,
70 years you know,
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a country can change.
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Certainly the
veneer of communism
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is peeled away pretty quickly
in Russia and that is good.
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Although it does make
me think of the Crimean War
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where Russia, it
all started with issues
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in the holy land
under the Ottoman Turks
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and Russia wanted
to be the champions
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and protectors of
Orthodox Christians.
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England wanted
to be the champion
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and protector of Protestants.
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France wanted to be the champion
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and protector of Catholics
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and the end result was
they all fought each other
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in the biggest war
before World War I.
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But it is good and
I hadn't even realized
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that Vladimir
Putin has been so vocal
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in defending Christian's rights.
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The Orthodox
Church too of course.
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I'm sure his
emphasis is strongly--
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Yeah, because you
know, of course you have also
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a lot of Orthodox in
countries where persecution
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is really very, very hard today.
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And coming back
to your question.
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No, unfortunately the
world is not better than it was
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in the past about
religious freedom.
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I have to say it is even
worse than it was in the past.
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Yeah, well, we often quote,
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I know you do too that pew
forum study of recent years.
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Yeah.
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70-75% of the world's population
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exists under
regimes where there is
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severe restrictions
of religious liberty.
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And about you know
according to the US Commission
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for Religious Freedom
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and also the department of state
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about 19 countries are really
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not respecting
religious freedom.
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But in fact it's more than that.
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When you see the list
they put or they set up
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that you can see that
several countries are missing
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and there are more than--
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I should say about 40 countries,
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in about 40
countries around the world.
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You have severe
restriction of religious freedom
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but in some
countries it's really,
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it's worst than it
has ever been in the past.
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Yeah. This is not a good thing.
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And yet the irony is you're
not within those countries.
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Very often the people belonging
to the majority religion
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that there is a
quite up with the state.
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They may feel no
sense of restriction.
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Yeah. They feel privileged.
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Yeah.
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Their religion is
protected and fine
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but the
judgment from the outside
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in the view of
general religious liberty
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is quite severe
that this is a country
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that will not allow a
divergent religious opinion
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or in the case of Saudi Arabia,
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they wouldn't let them their
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citizens change to any religion.
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Yeah, but you
know, that's a short term
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I should say vision
because even if you are
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member of the national religion,
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even if you are on
the side of the majority.
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If one day you
disagree with the mainline
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even if it is your
religion, you will be in trouble
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and you may be persecuted.
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And yet a Muslim are persecuted
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in Muslim country,
in Islamic countries.
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It's a point I was making,
people sometimes miss that.
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And Christian
have been persecuted
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in Christian
countries too in the past,
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a terrible persecution.
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If you are dissident,
if you don't want to follow
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the mainline,
you can be persecuted
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like heretics or like apostates.
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Yeah, so what's the answer
to this because, you know,
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we stand for what in some ways
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you can trace to a civil
constrict of religious liberty,
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but when someone's
in a religious context,
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it's very hard
to avoid this idea
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that you have the
truth and that anyone else
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by definition is you
could use a harsh word a heretic
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or spiritual danger.
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It's very hard in that context
to sort of grant the right to--
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to the wrong view to flourish.
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Yeah. Absolutely.
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And we cross that
divide between the nice theory
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and yet people that are
in the religious context
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for them to grant this freedom.
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That's a very good
viewpoint you know,
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and we try when in
defending religious freedom,
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we try to explain people that
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you can have a
strong conviction.
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You can believe
that you have the truth
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and you can believe also that
you have to share the truths,
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but at the same time you
have to live with all the people
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and you have respect them
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and to let them the
same right you have.
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It means you
have accept the belief
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the same about their truths,
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even if you believe I
have the truths you know,
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what I believe is the truths.
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Maybe it comes down to what was
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in one of the
documents out of Rome
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that wasn't
talking about this narrowly
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but they mentioned the
principle of reciprocity.
00:12:05.46\00:12:09.45
Maybe a lot of religious liberty
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comes to in the
reciprocity granting to others
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what you want for yourself.
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Yeah, absolutely if not
you cannot leave in community
00:12:15.50\00:12:18.86
you cannot leave with all people
00:12:18.89\00:12:21.10
and what will be the benefit?
00:12:21.13\00:12:22.79
You will won't pass all
your time persecuting people
00:12:22.82\00:12:25.86
because you believe
they don't have the truth.
00:12:25.89\00:12:28.21
You know, its so
oppose to the image
00:12:28.24\00:12:32.65
and the
revelation we are from God.
00:12:32.68\00:12:34.71
And its not just that
they don't have the truth.
00:12:34.74\00:12:36.83
Its often seen that
their view of the truth
00:12:36.86\00:12:39.41
is a direct threat to your view
00:12:39.44\00:12:41.11
and that we have to got against.
00:12:41.14\00:12:42.87
We'll take a short
break and be right back
00:12:42.90\00:12:44.62
after this with a
discussion with Dr. John Graz
00:12:44.65\00:12:46.82
on the world of
religious liberty.
00:12:46.85\00:12:49.06