Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Tim Roosenburg
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000290A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is a program that'll bring you discussion, 00:28 watch it closely, you'll hear opinions, 00:30 information and insights 00:33 into religious liberty developments around the world 00:36 and in the United States, particularly. 00:37 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:41 And my guest on the program is Tim Roosenberg. 00:45 Interesting background, at the moment 00:46 you're traveling around pretty much full time 00:49 on prophecy seminars featuring Islam. 00:52 You've been a church pastor and an Adventist 00:56 nearly all your life, right? 00:57 How old were you, when you 00:59 joined the Seventh-day Adventist church? 01:02 About 13. Yeah, I thought teenager, yeah. 01:06 So I'm gonna raise a question, authority. 01:10 You know, some one says, 01:11 on whose authority do you say that? 01:14 That's easily handled in the Seven-- 01:17 not the Seventh-day Adventist church, 01:18 but in the Roman Catholic church, 01:21 it's the magisterium of the church, 01:24 which is sort of the accumulated 01:26 authority of the church leadership 01:28 that derives from what they say was the keys of heaven and hell 01:32 that granted to Peter and you know, 01:34 passed on through the patriarchs. 01:37 In some other churches it can be their lack of 01:40 or their insights into Bible principles. 01:43 But you have to speak authoritatively 01:45 and in any organization, certainly if a church 01:49 there's a point that legitimacy derives from, 01:53 but it seems to me in some areas 01:55 this falls down badly. 01:59 Much of the Christian church in the United States 02:01 is not yet through this before. 02:03 But at the moment our own church is dealing with 02:06 an issue, for example of woman's ordination. 02:11 Have your ever thought of that with lot of discussion, 02:14 but is there a need for some alternative authority on this 02:18 or is it just a group of people who love God 02:21 that hope for another world and we do what-- 02:24 as the pope said in one of his documents 02:26 about changing the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday. 02:28 Whatever seems right to you. 02:32 I know for me, my authority is scripture. 02:37 Everything that I'm doing in my ministry currently 02:40 is based on my own study of scripture 02:42 and its corresponding parallels in history. 02:48 When scripture and history are lining up, 02:51 it's telling me I'm on a good path. 02:54 If I am trying to twist scripture 02:56 that take it contrary this history, 02:59 there's probably a twist to my understanding. 03:01 I agree with your point. 03:03 They're the weak, weakened belly of that line 03:06 of course is expressed thorough 03:08 the historical critical approach, 03:11 where you actually can discount some things 03:13 that are in the Bible saying, well, that was just history 03:16 that was just society-- 03:18 I don't much like that, even though 03:20 there's a kernel of truth in that. 03:21 When I'm saying history, I'm not talking about 03:24 the historical critical method as such. 03:26 What I'm talking about is, I'm dealing in Bible prophecy 03:30 and if-- if you can take this prophecy, 03:35 and this one is 2,500 years in the making. 03:38 If it is the same rules of interpretation 03:42 are being applied all the way through 03:44 and it's matching history on those parts 03:46 that are already passed or fulfilled. 03:49 If you keep on the same patterns 03:51 and the same rules of interpretation, 03:53 it should match going on into the future. 03:58 So I'm very careful 03:59 about the study of history and scripture together 04:02 and that's how I can demonstrate to an audience 04:05 that this prophecy that I focus on-- 04:07 That works. 04:08 Has it worked for 2,500 years? 04:10 That works particularly well for the prophecy. 04:11 Now, for the rest of it-- How about the principles? 04:14 Now, for principles on this one, 04:17 you talked about woman's ordination. 04:20 There's other ones that I might unleash on you. 04:22 Okay. 04:25 I've been rather disturbed on this whole discussion. 04:30 In that we have lots of folks on either side 04:35 who has spent a couple of years 04:38 lining up ammunition to throw at the other side. 04:42 And as a result, my question to them is, 04:46 how many people of you've 04:47 lead the Jesus Christ during that time? 04:49 Right. 04:50 Because the greatest commission 04:52 of the scripture for a Christian, 04:54 is to lead people to Jesus Christ. 04:56 Anything else that gets in the way of that 04:59 is a challenge. 05:00 Now, that doesn't mean 05:01 you should just ignore everything. 05:03 No, you can't run from every fight, 05:04 but even as you're saying that I'm thinking about Paul, 05:07 he made some very disparaging 05:09 comments about the other preachers, 05:11 not so much about their doctrine, 05:12 but how they lived. 05:13 Well, this sounds sexism, 05:15 foolish women astray and dissentions and strives, 05:20 these things in themselves are cautionary in a matter 05:24 what you're trying to push, if that's what comes of it. 05:26 Now, about leadership, 05:30 I'm gonna choose not to come down on a side 05:32 at this issue in this discussion, 05:34 because-- 05:35 Oh, I'm not willing that because-- 05:37 Because I've a great-- 05:38 I actually think, the argument is greater 05:40 than the two opinions. 05:42 What I mean is this broad stake than the outcome of it. 05:46 That's why I wrote it on the issue of authority, 05:48 not-- we're not discussing woman's ordination per say. 05:51 I'm going back-- let me say this. 05:56 Our discussion is not so much now a, 05:59 what does the Bible say as much as what is the policy. 06:04 It might be better 06:05 if it was on what scripture says, 06:07 because we might get to more biblical solution. 06:12 That said, I can go back in scripture in history 06:16 to the time of Samuel and the nation of Israel, 06:21 God's people are asking for a king. 06:25 Is a king what God told them to do? 06:28 No, they were supposed to have God as their king 06:31 and they go after-- asking for a king, 06:34 and Samuel gets upset. 06:37 And God tells Samuel to back-off. 06:41 God was kind to Samuel. 06:43 You've read in that story, we all know. 06:44 God was kind to Samuel. 06:46 God says, they haven't rejected you, 06:48 they've rejected Me. 06:49 Which was at least what was going on. 06:51 But they had rejected Samuel; 06:53 remember why they wanted a king? 06:55 It's because of Samuel sons. 06:56 Samuel sons, it made-- 06:58 Okay. 06:59 The whole priestly function in the-- 07:01 But get this. 07:03 Judgeship, just to stink to them. 07:05 So they wanted a legitimate rule. 07:07 So the nation of Israel, 07:08 Gods' people were going contrary to Gods' plan. 07:12 But God was asking not only telling Samuel that it was God, 07:17 not Samuel that is being rejected. 07:19 God turned around and asked Samuel 07:21 to anoint the first two kings. 07:24 The guy that was opposed to a king, 07:25 God went and asked to do it. 07:29 How do I bring this down the women's ordination? 07:32 I may have a side, and I actually have a meaning, 07:36 but I'm really not telling anybody what it is. 07:39 Because I believe, we have a greater issue here-- 07:42 What you're saying I think is God can work through 07:44 whichever way this particular dispute goes. 07:46 He can work through whichever one 07:47 based on the model of Samuel. 07:48 Yes, it's not a total either all. 07:50 I'm going back to scripture, 07:53 I have a story, an illustration in scripture 07:55 that I'm taking as my authority 07:57 of how they handle this situation. 07:59 And what did god asked Samuel to do? 08:01 Go do what I've asked You to do and I'm encouraging people, 08:05 go do what God ask us to do, share the gospel. 08:07 Yeah 08:08 So that's my takes on this 08:10 and based on my authority, which is scripture. 08:13 One of my text lie of the multifaceted approach 08:17 is to think back. 08:19 You mentioned history, 08:20 I think my history when I was a little kid. 08:23 I grew up in Australia and my father, 08:26 almost from my earliest years was already at the division, 08:29 which was the national leadership level, 08:31 for Australia of that church 08:34 and I would trail along with him 08:35 as a little kid, especially in summer camp meeting time. 08:39 When in Australia, they typically ordained 08:42 the ministers to the gospel of ministry. 08:46 And I could remember my father telling me 08:48 over and over again and he didn't-- 08:50 I don't think it was his burden, 08:52 but I would ask questions, you know, what's going on? 08:54 Well, he would say, anybody 08:56 that demanding to be ordained is not suitable to be ordained. 09:02 And that just struck me and my mind, 09:04 so much that for decades 09:06 I didn't even raise the topic in my work to my determent. 09:09 But I just-- my father just sort of impressed on me 09:14 and I do believe that principle, 09:15 not just for women's ordination, 09:17 for really everything that's to do with God. 09:20 You know, whether be servants of God 09:22 and respond to His leading and to His spirit, 09:24 not run ahead of Him. 09:27 And certainly not think as an infamous 09:33 compromise for any Adventist church, 09:35 Ken Wright an associate to Ellen White who-- 09:38 he said to an associate, you know, it's very nice, 09:40 you know, I could have been a great man, 09:42 if I haven't been in this church, 09:44 and he was pretty great in the church, 09:45 was one of the leading elites. 09:47 But his friend, turned to be, 09:49 himself to be a true friend saying, 09:50 you're only great because of this word, 09:52 not because you're great. 09:54 And if someone's doing a powerful work 09:57 for the Lord in bringing insults, 09:58 their reward is with God, to God to stop with-- 10:00 That's right. 10:01 To waste the energy, you know, demanding, 10:05 have you acknowledged? 10:06 I mean, that doesn't work that way. 10:08 We could wish that natural heart does, 10:10 but that's not the way it goes. 10:11 Sooner or later we're gonna move or die 10:13 and the world will go on without us, it's not about us. 10:17 And there is a dynamic that I think it works, 10:20 certainly in our church, 10:22 but I've seen it in other churches. 10:23 This way too many male ministers 10:26 who haven't really done the best by their calling 10:31 and there's a crying need 10:33 for more and more dedicated ministers. 10:37 And I think some women are moved 10:38 to move into the bridge. 10:40 That'll happen naturally, if it's really needed. 10:43 But to force it, 10:44 because you have an agenda for it, 10:46 is again running ahead of the Lord. 10:48 I truly believe that. 10:49 But on this issue, 10:51 I'm less and less interested on the theology of it. 10:53 There is a biblical model, as you say. 10:56 But what're really apply, is our attitude toward God 11:00 and I see in this, and other arguments 11:02 that I've seen, in my church and other churches, 11:05 is often a spirit of rebellion, a spirit of selfishness-- 11:08 Self-advancement and I'm not comfortable with it. 11:11 I'm not comfortable with it at the world at large, 11:13 but I'm embarrassed by it in the church. 11:17 You know-- you and I, 11:19 I'm sure have many short fallings 11:20 as individual Christians 11:21 that we need to look at ourselves first, 11:23 but still we're entitled to look at the church body 11:26 and see, this is just not right, 11:28 it doesn't comport, with what's god called us all. 11:31 You know squabbling, you know-- 11:33 Yeah, yeah. 11:34 The Peter and the Sons of Thunders 11:38 that were wanting to be the greatest in the kingdom. 11:41 You know what did Jesus tell, 11:42 you'll have a place at My right hand, 11:45 you know, you'll go through the trials with Me. 11:48 That's puts ahead of us, not great honor and glory. 11:51 If you're in the church for that 11:53 you're in the wrong place. 11:54 And I say go somewhere else. 11:56 I mean it's a hard thing, but you're not going to be a hero 12:00 to anyone with a heaven and God. 12:02 That's right. 12:04 Any kind of honor's gonna come much later. 12:07 And even if there are some accolades now, 12:11 be a little suspicious of it. 12:12 You can, because if that's coming behind-- 12:14 Well, no, but most-- 12:17 I'm thinking something. 12:18 Human beings don't judge correctly any how 12:19 and they're often applauding for the wrong reason. 12:21 Right. 12:22 But you know, there's many arguments, 12:25 this is just the latest. 12:29 And this isn't people oriented but, you know, 12:30 this big argument about what version of the Bible, 12:33 I mean, there was more on that, 12:36 these are not to be acquainted with the real arguments 12:39 that our church also went through. 12:40 An interpretation of the pivotal 12:42 prophetic lynchpin of our movement. 12:45 Yes, there's a lot at stake, there. 12:47 Fight spiritually, on this, as much as you can. 12:50 But over organizational changes and you know, 12:55 we haven't mentioned Ellen White, 12:56 in any of our programs till now. 12:59 But may be I'll wait till the break. 13:01 We'll take a break now, we'll be right back 13:03 to continue this interesting discussion. 13:05 I'm trying to make it leading edge. 13:07 So stay with us. |
Revised 2015-07-23