Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
that'll bring you discussion,
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watch it closely,
you'll hear opinions,
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information and insights
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into religious liberty
developments around the world
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and in the United
States, particularly.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Tim Roosenberg.
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Interesting
background, at the moment
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you're traveling
around pretty much full time
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on prophecy
seminars featuring Islam.
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You've been a church
pastor and an Adventist
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nearly all your life, right?
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How old were you, when you
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joined the
Seventh-day Adventist church?
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About 13. Yeah, I
thought teenager, yeah.
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So I'm gonna raise
a question, authority.
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You know, some one says,
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on whose
authority do you say that?
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That's easily
handled in the Seven--
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not the
Seventh-day Adventist church,
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but in the
Roman Catholic church,
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it's the
magisterium of the church,
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which is sort of the accumulated
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authority of the
church leadership
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that derives from what they say
was the keys of heaven and hell
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that granted to
Peter and you know,
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passed on
through the patriarchs.
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In some other churches
it can be their lack of
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or their insights
into Bible principles.
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But you have to
speak authoritatively
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and in any organization,
certainly if a church
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there's a point that
legitimacy derives from,
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but it seems to me in some areas
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this falls down badly.
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Much of the Christian
church in the United States
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is not yet through this before.
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But at the moment our
own church is dealing with
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an issue, for example
of woman's ordination.
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Have your ever thought of
that with lot of discussion,
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but is there a need for some
alternative authority on this
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or is it just a group
of people who love God
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that hope for another
world and we do what--
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as the pope said in
one of his documents
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about changing the
Saturday Sabbath to Sunday.
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Whatever seems right to you.
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I know for me, my
authority is scripture.
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Everything that I'm
doing in my ministry currently
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is based on my
own study of scripture
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and its corresponding
parallels in history.
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When scripture and
history are lining up,
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it's telling me
I'm on a good path.
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If I am trying
to twist scripture
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that take it
contrary this history,
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there's probably a
twist to my understanding.
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I agree with your point.
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They're the weak,
weakened belly of that line
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of course is expressed thorough
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the historical
critical approach,
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where you actually
can discount some things
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that are in the Bible saying,
well, that was just history
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that was just society--
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I don't much
like that, even though
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there's a kernel
of truth in that.
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When I'm saying
history, I'm not talking about
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the historical
critical method as such.
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What I'm talking about is,
I'm dealing in Bible prophecy
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and if-- if you
can take this prophecy,
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and this one is
2,500 years in the making.
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If it is the same
rules of interpretation
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are being applied
all the way through
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and it's matching
history on those parts
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that are already
passed or fulfilled.
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If you keep on the same patterns
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and the same
rules of interpretation,
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it should match
going on into the future.
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So I'm very careful
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about the study of
history and scripture together
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and that's how I can
demonstrate to an audience
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that this
prophecy that I focus on--
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That works.
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Has it worked for 2,500 years?
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That works particularly
well for the prophecy.
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Now, for the rest of
it-- How about the principles?
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Now, for principles on this one,
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you talked about
woman's ordination.
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There's other ones
that I might unleash on you.
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Okay.
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I've been rather disturbed
on this whole discussion.
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In that we have lots
of folks on either side
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who has spent a couple of years
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lining up ammunition to
throw at the other side.
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And as a result, my
question to them is,
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how many people of you've
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lead the Jesus
Christ during that time?
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Right.
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Because the greatest commission
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of the
scripture for a Christian,
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is to lead
people to Jesus Christ.
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Anything else that
gets in the way of that
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is a challenge.
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Now, that doesn't mean
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you should just
ignore everything.
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No, you can't
run from every fight,
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but even as you're saying
that I'm thinking about Paul,
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he made some very disparaging
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comments about
the other preachers,
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not so much
about their doctrine,
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but how they lived.
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Well, this sounds sexism,
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foolish women astray
and dissentions and strives,
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these things in themselves
are cautionary in a matter
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what you're trying to push,
if that's what comes of it.
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Now, about leadership,
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I'm gonna choose not
to come down on a side
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at this issue
in this discussion,
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because--
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Oh, I'm not
willing that because--
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Because I've a great--
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I actually think,
the argument is greater
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than the two opinions.
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What I mean is this broad
stake than the outcome of it.
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That's why I wrote it
on the issue of authority,
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not-- we're not discussing
woman's ordination per say.
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I'm going
back-- let me say this.
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Our discussion is
not so much now a,
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what does the Bible say as
much as what is the policy.
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It might be better
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if it was on
what scripture says,
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because we might get
to more biblical solution.
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That said, I can go
back in scripture in history
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to the time of Samuel
and the nation of Israel,
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God's people are
asking for a king.
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Is a king what
God told them to do?
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No, they were supposed
to have God as their king
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and they go
after-- asking for a king,
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and Samuel gets upset.
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And God tells
Samuel to back-off.
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God was kind to Samuel.
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You've read in
that story, we all know.
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God was kind to Samuel.
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God says, they
haven't rejected you,
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they've rejected Me.
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Which was at
least what was going on.
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But they had rejected Samuel;
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remember why they wanted a king?
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It's because of Samuel sons.
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Samuel sons, it made--
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Okay.
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The whole
priestly function in the--
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But get this.
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Judgeship, just
to stink to them.
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So they wanted
a legitimate rule.
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So the nation of Israel,
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Gods' people were
going contrary to Gods' plan.
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But God was asking not only
telling Samuel that it was God,
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not Samuel that
is being rejected.
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God turned
around and asked Samuel
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to anoint the first two kings.
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The guy that was
opposed to a king,
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God went and asked to do it.
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How do I bring this
down the women's ordination?
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I may have a side, and
I actually have a meaning,
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but I'm really not
telling anybody what it is.
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Because I believe, we
have a greater issue here--
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What you're saying I
think is God can work through
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whichever way this
particular dispute goes.
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He can work
through whichever one
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based on the model of Samuel.
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Yes, it's not a
total either all.
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I'm going back to scripture,
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I have a story, an
illustration in scripture
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that I'm taking as my authority
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of how they
handle this situation.
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And what did god
asked Samuel to do?
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Go do what I've asked You to
do and I'm encouraging people,
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go do what God ask us
to do, share the gospel.
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Yeah
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So that's my takes on this
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and based on my
authority, which is scripture.
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One of my text lie of
the multifaceted approach
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is to think back.
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You mentioned history,
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I think my history
when I was a little kid.
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I grew up in
Australia and my father,
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almost from my earliest years
was already at the division,
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which was the
national leadership level,
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for Australia of that church
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and I would trail along with him
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as a little kid, especially
in summer camp meeting time.
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When in Australia,
they typically ordained
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the ministers to
the gospel of ministry.
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And I could
remember my father telling me
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over and over
again and he didn't--
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I don't think it was his burden,
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but I would ask questions,
you know, what's going on?
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Well, he would say, anybody
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that demanding to be ordained
is not suitable to be ordained.
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And that just
struck me and my mind,
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so much that for decades
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I didn't even raise the topic
in my work to my determent.
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But I just-- my father
just sort of impressed on me
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and I do believe that principle,
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not just for women's ordination,
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for really everything
that's to do with God.
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You know, whether
be servants of God
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and respond to His
leading and to His spirit,
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not run ahead of Him.
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And certainly not
think as an infamous
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compromise for
any Adventist church,
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Ken Wright an
associate to Ellen White who--
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he said to an associate,
you know, it's very nice,
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you know, I could
have been a great man,
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if I haven't
been in this church,
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and he was pretty
great in the church,
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was one of the leading elites.
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But his friend, turned to be,
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himself to be a
true friend saying,
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you're only great
because of this word,
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not because you're great.
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And if someone's
doing a powerful work
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for the Lord in
bringing insults,
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their reward is with
God, to God to stop with--
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That's right.
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To waste the
energy, you know, demanding,
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have you acknowledged?
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I mean, that
doesn't work that way.
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We could wish that
natural heart does,
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but that's not the way it goes.
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Sooner or later
we're gonna move or die
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and the world will go on
without us, it's not about us.
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And there is a
dynamic that I think it works,
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certainly in our church,
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but I've seen it
in other churches.
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This way too many male ministers
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who haven't really done
the best by their calling
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and there's a crying need
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for more and more
dedicated ministers.
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And I think some women are moved
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to move into the bridge.
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That'll happen naturally,
if it's really needed.
00:10:40.72\00:10:43.72
But to force it,
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because you have
an agenda for it,
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is again running
ahead of the Lord.
00:10:46.42\00:10:48.10
I truly believe that.
00:10:48.13\00:10:49.38
But on this issue,
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I'm less and less interested
on the theology of it.
00:10:51.32\00:10:53.65
There is a
biblical model, as you say.
00:10:53.68\00:10:56.23
But what're really apply,
is our attitude toward God
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and I see in this,
and other arguments
00:11:00.00\00:11:02.49
that I've seen, in my
church and other churches,
00:11:02.52\00:11:05.08
is often a spirit of rebellion,
a spirit of selfishness--
00:11:05.11\00:11:08.86
Self-advancement and
I'm not comfortable with it.
00:11:08.89\00:11:11.78
I'm not comfortable with
it at the world at large,
00:11:11.81\00:11:13.74
but I'm embarrassed
by it in the church.
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You know-- you and I,
00:11:17.64\00:11:19.35
I'm sure have
many short fallings
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as individual Christians
00:11:20.86\00:11:21.90
that we need to
look at ourselves first,
00:11:21.93\00:11:23.64
but still we're entitled
to look at the church body
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and see, this is just not right,
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it doesn't comport, with
what's god called us all.
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You know squabbling, you know--
00:11:31.18\00:11:33.24
Yeah, yeah.
00:11:33.27\00:11:34.32
The Peter and
the Sons of Thunders
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that were wanting to be
the greatest in the kingdom.
00:11:38.52\00:11:41.69
You know what did Jesus tell,
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you'll have a
place at My right hand,
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you know, you'll go
through the trials with Me.
00:11:45.21\00:11:48.01
That's puts ahead of us,
not great honor and glory.
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If you're in the church for that
00:11:51.89\00:11:53.37
you're in the wrong place.
00:11:53.40\00:11:54.61
And I say go somewhere else.
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I mean it's a hard thing, but
you're not going to be a hero
00:11:56.74\00:12:00.32
to anyone with a heaven and God.
00:12:00.35\00:12:01.97
That's right.
00:12:02.00\00:12:04.18
Any kind of honor's
gonna come much later.
00:12:04.21\00:12:07.93
And even if there
are some accolades now,
00:12:07.96\00:12:11.12
be a little suspicious of it.
00:12:11.15\00:12:12.79
You can, because if
that's coming behind--
00:12:12.82\00:12:14.71
Well, no, but most--
00:12:14.74\00:12:17.00
I'm thinking something.
00:12:17.03\00:12:18.06
Human beings don't
judge correctly any how
00:12:18.09\00:12:19.43
and they're often
applauding for the wrong reason.
00:12:19.46\00:12:21.21
Right.
00:12:21.24\00:12:22.49
But you know,
there's many arguments,
00:12:22.52\00:12:25.46
this is just the latest.
00:12:25.49\00:12:26.85
And this isn't people
oriented but, you know,
00:12:29.02\00:12:30.78
this big argument about
what version of the Bible,
00:12:30.81\00:12:33.87
I mean, there was more on that,
00:12:33.90\00:12:36.44
these are not to be acquainted
with the real arguments
00:12:36.47\00:12:38.99
that our church
also went through.
00:12:39.02\00:12:40.39
An interpretation of the pivotal
00:12:40.42\00:12:42.68
prophetic
lynchpin of our movement.
00:12:42.71\00:12:45.56
Yes, there's a
lot at stake, there.
00:12:45.59\00:12:47.50
Fight spiritually, on
this, as much as you can.
00:12:47.53\00:12:50.52
But over organizational
changes and you know,
00:12:50.55\00:12:55.41
we haven't
mentioned Ellen White,
00:12:55.44\00:12:56.55
in any of our programs till now.
00:12:56.58\00:12:59.02
But may be I'll
wait till the break.
00:12:59.05\00:13:01.11
We'll take a break
now, we'll be right back
00:13:01.14\00:13:03.36
to continue this
interesting discussion.
00:13:03.39\00:13:05.39
I'm trying to
make it leading edge.
00:13:05.42\00:13:07.72
So stay with us.
00:13:07.75\00:13:08.78