Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Tim Roosenburg
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000289A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is a program bringing you news, views, discussion 00:27 and analysis of religious liberty developments 00:29 around the world 00:31 and of course in the United States. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:36 And my guest on the program is Tim Roosenberg 00:39 who among other accomplishments is an author 00:43 and a lecturer on Islam and Christianity and prophecy. 00:48 And I want to really put 00:49 a difficult question to you, Tim. 00:51 Okay. 00:52 Question that I don't think 00:53 is ever been asked quite like this, 00:56 the first half, yes, you know, the Danish cartoon controversy 01:02 and then the Charlie Hebdo thing. 01:03 Yes. 01:04 All centered around depictions of Muhammad 01:08 and the reaction. 01:12 Not too many people have remarked on the fact though. 01:15 Yes, we know Islam doesn't like 01:17 pictorial representations of any thing, 01:22 animals, humans, Muhammad whatever. 01:26 But no one much has remarked 01:27 on why this special sensibility for Muhammad, 01:30 after all they worship Allah. 01:33 Muhammad was just a man who received the communications 01:38 from the jinn as he thought or Gabriel as he was told. 01:44 That's the first half of it. 01:45 Okay. Should... 01:47 Can I remember this whole question? 01:49 Yes, it's like a real complicated question. 01:52 Now, but remember the central point 01:53 of this is why Muhammad, 01:56 why there's such a sensitivity to Muhammad 01:58 who is not what Islam is all about. 02:01 They say, it's about worship of Allah. 02:06 Now in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 02:08 we worship God. 02:12 We're faithful to the Old Testament, 02:14 the New Testament. 02:15 We try to synthesize the two. 02:18 We have received communications from God through a woman 02:23 who claimed to be the Spirit of Prophecy, Ellen G. White. 02:27 Is there any analogy? 02:29 Would it trouble you 02:30 if a Roman Catholic ran any sort of a picture 02:35 and even perhaps a derogatory picture of Ellen White? 02:39 No. 02:40 So why does Islam get so public. 02:42 Well, will it trouble me, I would-- 02:43 Was a red herring part of that question. 02:44 I would probably go talk, be tempted to go 02:47 and talk to them about it, 02:49 trying to get them to see a different viewpoint 02:50 but would I feel like attacking them 02:52 or anything like that, not at all. 02:54 Because it's very plain 02:57 and I've read it in Islamic material that 02:59 they don't like representations of created things. 03:03 And that's the reasonable point 03:04 'cause it's also very biblical, the Old Testament. 03:07 I think they're still destroying 03:08 ancient artifacts because of those issues. 03:10 Because of this issue, right. 03:12 And no, I'm not just barking up a symbolic tree. 03:14 There is a very real thing here. 03:16 Yes, it is. 03:17 But no one much has remarked on this. 03:19 It derives from this probation against likenesses 03:22 which the-- which exodus has. 03:26 But it's ramped when it's Muhammad. 03:28 Right, and nobody has really addressed that, 03:32 why this-- I can take a crack at it. 03:34 But that's all it is, is my guesstimate. 03:38 Muhammad is supposedly the perfect example 03:42 of what it would mean to be true follower of God, 03:46 so whatever Muhammad does is acceptable. 03:50 That's where you can have the child brides 03:52 and everything else come into it, 03:53 he did it, you can do it. 03:55 So he is the model of ethics and everything else, 03:59 that's perfect. 04:00 That's the perfect example. 04:02 To make fun of him would be to make fun 04:05 of the perfect example, thereby it gets them angry 04:11 but whenever you get that kind of response, 04:14 I always come back with, 04:15 if you got to defend your God or your, 04:18 whoever you're supporting, then they're not very strong 04:20 if they can't defend themselves. 04:22 Right, yes, it's a good answer 04:26 but I do think it hasn't been explored as to, 04:30 or put another way around, 04:32 I don't think most people know in the west 04:34 that there a general probation against likenesses. 04:38 It's not just Muhammad 04:42 and it's not just derogatory depictions, 04:45 it's any depiction. 04:46 Okay, but let me challenge. 04:47 And Christianity went through that thing. 04:49 I mean the Roman Catholic Church has so far passed it. 04:52 We've forgotten but I mean the-- 04:54 Let me challenge Islamic state on that 04:56 they're on statements then. 04:59 They have YouTubes they have posted. 05:01 Right. Those are images. 05:02 You are thinking like me. Those are images. 05:04 This is exactly where I'm going. 05:09 And on one level if you don't watch it, 05:11 there's, well, which we know 05:12 with the Bamiyan Buddhas and so on. 05:15 It's a totally anti modern stance, 05:18 it's retrograde, it's like swimming 05:20 the wrong way against history and an openness in society. 05:26 But I wish somehow we can uncover it 05:28 'cause I don't think 05:29 it's ultimately in the interest of Islam 05:31 or certainly any faith group to have such a inconsistent 05:36 and retrograde view, in this case likenesses. 05:41 I just don't think it's well thought out. 05:44 And apart from anything else if you really look at it, 05:47 it expresses what you say. 05:49 Well, you said it nicely. 05:51 Allah is the God behind the Quran 05:54 but in actuality it's Muhammad they're worshiping by default 05:59 and from a point of not of religious liberty 06:02 'cause anyone can do what they want, 06:04 worship the golden cow, 06:05 but from point of Christianity I think that is a false God-- 06:10 They are-- 06:11 'Cause we try to agree that Allah 06:13 is at least the claim is, you know, 06:17 they are referring to the same Father God, 06:20 you know, the Creator. 06:22 He is described differently. He is described-- 06:24 Yes, he is described differently 06:26 but, you know, I'm willing to accept 06:28 that's the same God they're referring to. 06:29 Well. 06:31 But they've interjected this man 06:33 who is treated in a most godly manner, God like manner. 06:38 Yes, and there is your problem. 06:43 They have a picture of God as depicted by Muhammad 06:48 and so whatever you say about Muhammad, 06:50 you're saying about his depiction of God. 06:53 So they get linked together so easy. 06:54 That's what we're talking about. 06:56 You remember them. 06:57 I don't think that's the basis 06:58 of all of this the sensitivity on him 07:02 but that would follow. 07:04 I'm just trying looking for answers. 07:06 Yeah. You asked the question. 07:08 But it's interesting thing and I really don't believe-- 07:10 this I'm quite certain of, in the west generally 07:13 I don't think it's understood 07:16 that the probation is general against all likenesses. 07:19 They think it's specific to just Muhammad. 07:22 Well, that's where they get-- 07:24 That's where you push him over the edge. 07:26 Yeah. 07:27 I mean, you've been to mosques and so on. 07:28 There is no pictures there of anything. 07:30 Not flowers, well, I better be careful of that 07:32 flowery little designs. 07:34 They're not really, not really of flowers even 07:37 or scenery or no faces, building, nothing, 07:41 these are abstract designs by intention, 07:45 'cause it was first stated in the Old Testament 07:49 against graven images and so on, 07:51 but it's very interesting though 07:53 'cause it's not just Islam and Christianity. 07:55 There are any number of pagan pre-Christian 08:00 or pre-Islamic systems that have the same inhibition 08:03 against taking photographs and representing. 08:07 They might have their own little carvings on the log 08:09 but they don't really like 08:10 you capturing the spirit in a photograph. 08:15 And I don't know the meaning of it, 08:17 but there is, there is something that 08:18 work in the way humans think 08:20 and I think are projected back into religion. 08:23 Yeah. 08:24 But in this case it's costing lives. 08:28 And, you know, we started another program 08:30 by pointing out that, 08:31 you know, it's a very bad attitude toward another faith 08:36 or another individual to do something that they don't like. 08:39 If you're doing it just to offend them, 08:41 you and I wouldn't want to do that 08:45 but, you know, what about 08:48 just making a positive representation, 08:51 we would be in as much trouble 08:52 with these people if we -- illustration. 08:55 Actually I don't think you would be in as much trouble, 08:57 they wouldn't like it. 08:58 Well, it's much theological trouble. 08:59 No, I don't think there would be as much violence. 09:01 Right. 09:02 And I'm concern 'cause Pam Geller, 09:07 lady that's been behind some of the cartoon contest 09:09 in the United States has been talking about 09:12 putting the winning cartoon on city buses 09:18 in some American cities which is a concern of mine 09:21 because that's now placing at risk 09:23 whoever would be riding on that bus. 09:26 Now, you know, that's not to defend at all radical Islam. 09:32 It's just I don't think I would really like 09:34 riding on a bus with the cartoon of Muhammad 09:37 because I don't have a death wish. 09:39 It's an aggravation or an incitation to trouble. 09:46 In fact I was even thinking, 09:47 I'm sure there is lawyers watching 09:50 they will double guess you, but it seems to me 09:52 if there is an insult, if it's an aggravated insult 09:54 that changes the legal dynamic. 09:57 It doesn't take away the crime of attacking 10:01 another person, but if there is a factor 10:05 that was designed to put them in that state of mind 10:09 that minimizes their guilt I think so. 10:12 But now, you know, this issue of defamation 10:16 of religion is not new with Islam versus Christianity 10:21 and certainly in the Middle Ages Christianity 10:24 was pretty big on this. 10:25 You could be dealt with severely by the church, 10:28 even lose your life if you spoke 10:32 in a sacrilegious manner about holy things 10:35 or even about the holy mother church, right? 10:39 You can, you lose your life for centuries 10:42 either in the Christian or the Muslim world 10:46 for openly sharing scripture 10:49 and leading people to follow a scriptural viewpoint versus 10:52 what they'd been traditionally taught. 10:54 Yes. 10:55 God's people are always caught in the middle 10:57 on both sides on this thing. 11:00 And I do think in this current debate 11:02 between Islam and Christianity, 11:04 there's many levels of it but it's in everyone's interest 11:08 and I've said it before 11:09 to encourage people to be familiar 11:11 with what the other person holds or holds this holy. 11:14 And in the case of Islam they should be 11:17 more agreeable to allowing others to read the Quran. 11:20 I know there's big inhibition about it. 11:22 First of all it's not in English 11:23 so therefore you can't, you're not qualified. 11:27 Well, it's-- There are translations-- 11:29 Well, I was about to say, an English translations by 11:31 and large are condemned and not recommended to people. 11:38 But knowledge is very good. 11:40 And first of all we should know our own holy book 11:42 which most people don't. 11:44 And then have some understanding 11:46 of where the other person is coming from. 11:48 I take that too within Christianity 11:51 to another level. 11:52 I challenge people all the time 'cause I do prophecy seminars. 11:56 Have you studied any other viewpoint 11:58 other than the one you hold? 12:00 Yeah. 12:01 And you keep coming back to scripture 12:03 and finding out what fits. 12:05 Most people aren't willing to do that. 12:06 Doesn't God in-- I should remember the text, 12:09 I know the text but the reference, 12:10 he says come, let us reason together. 12:13 It's in Isaiah. Yeah, that's it. 12:15 I was going to guess at that but I don't want to be wrong. 12:17 But, you know, God calls us to rationality 12:21 and too many religions if not at this moment, 12:26 then in the past and Christianity 12:28 through the Roman Catholic Church 12:29 in the Middle Ages didn't allow rationality. 12:32 You take it because the priest said it 12:34 or the Holy Father said it. 12:36 And Islam is stuck in that model. 12:39 Don't you think? Yeah. 12:40 The imam says it 12:42 and we've got to get away from that. 12:48 We hadn't spoken about it on the program 12:50 but I'll think before you and I 12:52 were mentioning El-Sisi of Egypt. 12:54 I really admire his statement recently 12:58 which I'm sure there will be something to pay for, 13:01 but he said that Islam needs a reformation. 13:05 And I truly believe that. 13:08 Whether it changes Islam remains to be seen 13:10 but what in my view a reformation 13:13 is a critical reexamination of your beliefs. 13:19 Yes. 13:20 Not what you've taken or forced it on you, 13:22 don't just take it anymore, look at it, think it through, 13:25 is this what I really want to go with? 13:28 Interestingly El-Sisi's government has 13:32 and the courts have just sentenced Mohamed Morsi 13:38 to death along with Mohamed Badie, 13:41 the spiritual guide of the Muslim brotherhood 13:43 but they haven't put him to death 13:45 for fear of the reaction 13:47 they would get back from that one. 13:48 Well, we're getting into a bigger things 13:50 that religion is at play but I think there's-- 13:53 Yeah, well, that's just what I'm saying. 13:54 There's civil overreaction 13:56 and then there is an element of show trials 13:59 and the whole thing it's very sad 14:01 and you know, we should pray for. 14:02 I'm just saying Egypt 14:03 is exceedingly volatile at the moment. 14:05 Oh, yeah, we should pray for Egypt. 14:07 You know, there's a line of thinking 14:08 that El-Sisi's government itself is not purely legitimate 14:12 much as many people might fear the Muslim brotherhood, 14:18 they came to power by the ballot box 14:19 and were removed by a cue. 14:21 Right. 14:23 So there is-- 14:24 A highly supported cue. 14:25 Yes, I mean, I've spoken to a few Egyptians 14:29 that I've stumbled across and they have a-- 14:32 well, they have a variety of use 14:34 but they all basically say this pray for my country, 14:36 it's going through a horrible time, horrible time. 14:40 And I don't know that anybody did it 14:43 or there was an easy way out of it 14:45 but I think we kept it bottled up a long time 14:47 in the west by supporting, not so much, 14:50 we shouldn't have supported and say Obama Barrack, 14:54 but we should have encouraged in certain areas 14:58 where we supported 14:59 the bottling up of the situation and... 15:03 But, yes, it's worth remembering 15:04 as you no doubt no that the Muslim brotherhood 15:07 is the father of all of the jihadi ideas 15:11 that are currently floating around. 15:12 Starting from the 1920s. 15:14 Yeah, it was the modern reinterpretation 15:18 of the whole jihadi movement, 15:21 of the whole global caliphate and so on. 15:24 And it was most pugnacious 15:26 not because they were a lot of them, 15:29 never really were, but it was an academic movement 15:31 that attempted to sort of diffuse its ideas 15:35 through every aspect of Middle Eastern 15:37 thought and economy. 15:39 And it successfully it's come up 15:40 in both Sunni and Shia Islam. 15:42 Yes. So it's been successful. 15:45 That the part I don't understand 15:47 is why they fumble it so badly when they finally made power. 15:51 It just seem like, you know, comedy of errors. 15:57 But that's what it is, there is no question. 15:59 But El-Sisi's comment was very good, 16:00 didn't you think, he was bold, remember-- 16:03 Yes, call for reformation. 16:04 Remember 16:09 the president of Egypt too assassinated. 16:12 Sadat was assassinated for less. 16:16 It's really paid back by the Muslim brotherhood 16:20 for him repressing them. 16:24 And here El-Sisi who is repressive 16:27 and then calls for a total revaluation 16:31 of Islam in itself. 16:34 And then bombs Islam state supporters in Libya. 16:38 I know. Crazy world. 16:39 Crazy world. Yes, it is. 16:41 But a lot of the craziness is religion and to be fair, 16:43 I don't want this program to just turn in. 16:45 I don't think it is a diatribe against Islam. 16:47 But it's a critical analysis. 16:49 But Christianity has its moments big time. 16:53 Again why I say that there are many Muslims 16:55 and many Christians who serve the same false 16:57 god of force, fear and anger, do it our way or else. 16:59 I like that term, force, fear and anger. 17:02 Yeah. 17:03 Yeah. That's what they use. 17:04 Yeah, you know, you can simple it further 17:07 and we've said it on this program before. 17:09 Any time there's force involved in, 17:10 you know, it's antithetical of the true religion 17:13 and the true religious liberty or compulsion. 17:16 In fact, yeah... 17:18 Both sides we got to keep an eye on. 17:20 Well, I think it's human nature. 17:21 We got to keep an eye on. 17:23 Yes. 17:24 There was some interesting studies recently 17:27 on the human brain and human psychology, 17:30 you know, a lot of scientists who I think probably 17:33 had different views on religion themselves 17:35 pointed out that there seems to be 17:37 a God shape void in our-- the way our mind works, 17:40 we conditioned to think of God. 17:43 You can run it either way. 17:44 You can say, well, if we developed, 17:47 you know, from the microscopic organism 17:50 then this means that God is out construct. 17:54 If you believe God made us, 17:56 then He made us structurally to accommodate the idea of Him. 18:01 So neither one really proves anything 18:03 but the facts are today where human beings are, 18:06 we can't exist without God. 18:08 We have to make a God one way or another. 18:11 And so human nature I think colors 18:15 the way any religion especially when it has power or like Islam 18:19 which doesn't have great power but it has great frustration. 18:21 Yeah. 18:22 How it lashes out 18:24 and I think anybody of good faith both in the spiritual 18:28 and in the progress of man needs to fight against this, 18:31 we just can't allow, 18:33 you know, it's been trendy to use the term 18:35 Islam old fascist in this case, 18:37 but it could by, you know, 18:39 doesn't go well with Christianity, 18:40 but you know Christian fascists or whatever. 18:43 A person with religious faith 18:45 and unbalanced attitude toward their peers 18:48 just shouldn't be allowed to adores that. 18:51 You know what did Jesus say 18:52 when He was asked about religion, you remember? 18:54 About religion? 18:56 Well about, what was the duty of men? 18:58 Oh. Rabbi Hillel stated it too. 19:01 Fear God and love God. 19:02 Yeah, that's your full, whole duty to acknowledge God 19:07 but it's showing in how you treat your fellow man. 19:10 And so again... No question. 19:12 No religion, I don't care whether it's Islam, 19:13 Christianity, if it's acting abusively 19:15 to other human beings, 19:17 it's not a religion worth copying 19:18 and it's a religion that must be countered, 19:21 not necessarily by the sword, 19:23 but it means that to diminish 19:25 it's influence and its negative effect. 19:28 And so I don't have a problem with speaking out 19:32 against this manifestation of Islam 19:35 that's not to condemn every human being 19:37 that's a Muslim or even their root ideas 19:41 which I may disagree with 19:42 but as it's practiced in this aggressive, 19:45 you know, my way or the highway approach, 19:47 it just can't be. 19:49 There's another factor that might be playing 19:51 into this other than just force my way. 19:54 There are people that want to have power 19:57 and you know, gains 19:59 and everything are the same way. 20:00 You get people that feel powerless joining a gang 20:04 so they can get power. 20:05 Yeah. 20:06 And you have powerless people 20:09 joining together trying to exert power on others. 20:12 Well, that's human nature again. 20:13 Right, it's human nature. 20:14 Religion misuses that as well as any other mechanism. 20:18 The imam mentality. 20:20 And I think that explains too 20:21 why a lot of young people join ISON or ISIS. 20:26 You know, they're feeling idealistic, 20:28 they want to make a difference but they're just a little kid, 20:30 they're just a teenager whatever what I do. 20:32 But here is a bunch of likeminded people 20:35 that are scaring the whole establishment. 20:38 To me it's-- in a way it's a religious spin 20:41 on what happen in the 60s. 20:43 you know, the hippie movement 20:46 and the ultimate lifestyles and all the rest. 20:49 That was very empowering to people 20:50 that didn't want to go to Vietnam. 20:53 Yeah. 20:57 Back to your lectures 20:58 which is the central of discussion 21:01 I want to talk to you about. 21:04 What will be arbiter of success 21:06 and I know that you are comfortable 21:09 in dealing with a lot of non-mainline Christians. 21:14 You've been getting Muslims and probably lot of seculars 21:17 along the heathens. 21:18 Do you think it's a legitimate thing 21:19 to mix descriptions of political developments 21:23 and pull it back into biblical prophecy? 21:26 Do you think that works 21:27 or is it just tantalize them little bit? 21:31 I tell them all the time what my-- 21:34 what I consider the success 21:37 that people will be drawn to Jesus 21:39 and back to the Bible for study. 21:43 Wonderful. Let's take a break now. 21:45 We'll be back shortly to finish the program. |
Revised 2015-07-23