Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program bringing
you news, views, discussion
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and analysis of
religious liberty developments
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around the world
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and of course in
the United States.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Tim Roosenberg
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who among other
accomplishments is an author
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and a lecturer on Islam
and Christianity and prophecy.
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And I want to really put
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a difficult
question to you, Tim.
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Okay.
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Question that I don't think
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is ever been
asked quite like this,
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the first half, yes, you know,
the Danish cartoon controversy
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and then the
Charlie Hebdo thing.
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Yes.
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All centered around
depictions of Muhammad
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and the reaction.
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Not too many people have
remarked on the fact though.
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Yes, we know Islam doesn't like
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pictorial
representations of any thing,
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animals, humans,
Muhammad whatever.
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But no one much has remarked
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on why this special
sensibility for Muhammad,
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after all they worship Allah.
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Muhammad was just a man
who received the communications
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from the jinn as he thought
or Gabriel as he was told.
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That's the first half of it.
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Okay. Should...
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Can I remember
this whole question?
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Yes, it's like a
real complicated question.
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Now, but
remember the central point
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of this is why Muhammad,
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why there's such a
sensitivity to Muhammad
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who is not what
Islam is all about.
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They say, it's
about worship of Allah.
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Now in the
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
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we worship God.
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We're faithful to
the Old Testament,
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the New Testament.
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We try to synthesize the two.
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We have received communications
from God through a woman
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who claimed to be the Spirit
of Prophecy, Ellen G. White.
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Is there any analogy?
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Would it trouble you
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if a Roman Catholic
ran any sort of a picture
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and even perhaps a derogatory
picture of Ellen White?
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No.
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So why does Islam get so public.
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Well, will it
trouble me, I would--
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Was a red herring
part of that question.
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I would probably go
talk, be tempted to go
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and talk to them about it,
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trying to get them to
see a different viewpoint
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but would I feel
like attacking them
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or anything like
that, not at all.
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Because it's very plain
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and I've read it in
Islamic material that
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they don't like representations
of created things.
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And that's the reasonable point
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'cause it's also very
biblical, the Old Testament.
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I think they're still destroying
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ancient artifacts
because of those issues.
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Because of this issue, right.
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And no, I'm not just
barking up a symbolic tree.
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There is a very real thing here.
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Yes, it is.
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But no one much
has remarked on this.
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It derives from this
probation against likenesses
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which the-- which exodus has.
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But it's ramped
when it's Muhammad.
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Right, and nobody has
really addressed that,
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why this-- I can
take a crack at it.
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But that's all it
is, is my guesstimate.
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Muhammad is
supposedly the perfect example
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of what it would mean
to be true follower of God,
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so whatever
Muhammad does is acceptable.
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That's where you can
have the child brides
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and everything
else come into it,
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he did it, you can do it.
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So he is the model of
ethics and everything else,
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that's perfect.
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That's the perfect example.
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To make fun of him
would be to make fun
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of the perfect example,
thereby it gets them angry
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but whenever you get
that kind of response,
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I always come back with,
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if you got to
defend your God or your,
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whoever you're supporting,
then they're not very strong
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if they can't defend themselves.
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Right, yes, it's a good answer
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but I do think it
hasn't been explored as to,
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or put another way around,
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I don't think most
people know in the west
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that there a general
probation against likenesses.
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It's not just Muhammad
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and it's not just
derogatory depictions,
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it's any depiction.
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Okay, but let me challenge.
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And Christianity
went through that thing.
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I mean the Roman Catholic
Church has so far passed it.
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We've forgotten but I mean the--
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Let me challenge
Islamic state on that
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they're on statements then.
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They have
YouTubes they have posted.
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Right. Those are images.
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You are thinking
like me. Those are images.
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This is exactly where I'm going.
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And on one level
if you don't watch it,
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there's, well, which we know
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with the Bamiyan
Buddhas and so on.
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It's a totally
anti modern stance,
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it's retrograde,
it's like swimming
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the wrong way against history
and an openness in society.
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But I wish
somehow we can uncover it
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'cause I don't think
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it's ultimately in
the interest of Islam
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or certainly any faith group
to have such a inconsistent
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and retrograde view,
in this case likenesses.
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I just don't think
it's well thought out.
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And apart from anything
else if you really look at it,
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it expresses what you say.
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Well, you said it nicely.
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Allah is the
God behind the Quran
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but in actuality it's Muhammad
they're worshiping by default
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and from a point of
not of religious liberty
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'cause anyone can
do what they want,
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worship the golden cow,
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but from point of Christianity
I think that is a false God--
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They are--
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'Cause we try
to agree that Allah
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is at least the
claim is, you know,
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they are referring
to the same Father God,
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you know, the Creator.
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He is described
differently. He is described--
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Yes, he is described differently
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but, you know,
I'm willing to accept
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that's the same God
they're referring to.
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Well.
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But they've interjected this man
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who is treated in a most
godly manner, God like manner.
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Yes, and there is your problem.
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They have a picture of
God as depicted by Muhammad
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and so whatever
you say about Muhammad,
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you're saying about
his depiction of God.
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So they get
linked together so easy.
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That's what we're talking about.
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You remember them.
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I don't think that's the basis
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of all of this
the sensitivity on him
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but that would follow.
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I'm just trying
looking for answers.
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Yeah. You asked the question.
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But it's interesting thing
and I really don't believe--
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this I'm quite certain
of, in the west generally
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I don't think it's understood
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that the probation is
general against all likenesses.
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They think it's
specific to just Muhammad.
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Well, that's where they get--
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That's where you
push him over the edge.
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Yeah.
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I mean, you've been
to mosques and so on.
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There is no
pictures there of anything.
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Not flowers, well, I
better be careful of that
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flowery little designs.
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They're not really,
not really of flowers even
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or scenery or no
faces, building, nothing,
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these are abstract
designs by intention,
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'cause it was first
stated in the Old Testament
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against graven images and so on,
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but it's very interesting though
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'cause it's not just
Islam and Christianity.
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There are any number
of pagan pre-Christian
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or pre-Islamic systems
that have the same inhibition
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against taking
photographs and representing.
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They might have their own
little carvings on the log
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but they don't really like
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you capturing the
spirit in a photograph.
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And I don't know
the meaning of it,
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but there is,
there is something that
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work in the way humans think
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and I think are
projected back into religion.
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Yeah.
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But in this case
it's costing lives.
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And, you know, we
started another program
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by pointing out that,
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you know, it's a very bad
attitude toward another faith
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or another individual to do
something that they don't like.
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If you're doing it
just to offend them,
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you and I
wouldn't want to do that
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but, you know, what about
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just making a
positive representation,
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we would be in as much trouble
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with these people
if we -- illustration.
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Actually I don't think you
would be in as much trouble,
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they wouldn't like it.
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Well, it's much
theological trouble.
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No, I don't think there
would be as much violence.
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Right.
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And I'm concern
'cause Pam Geller,
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lady that's been behind
some of the cartoon contest
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in the United States
has been talking about
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putting the winning
cartoon on city buses
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in some American cities
which is a concern of mine
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because that's
now placing at risk
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whoever would be
riding on that bus.
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Now, you know, that's not
to defend at all radical Islam.
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It's just I don't
think I would really like
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riding on a bus with
the cartoon of Muhammad
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because I don't
have a death wish.
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It's an aggravation or
an incitation to trouble.
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In fact I was even thinking,
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I'm sure there
is lawyers watching
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they will double guess
you, but it seems to me
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if there is an insult,
if it's an aggravated insult
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that changes the legal dynamic.
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It doesn't take away
the crime of attacking
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another person, but
if there is a factor
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that was designed to put
them in that state of mind
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that minimizes
their guilt I think so.
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But now, you know,
this issue of defamation
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of religion is not new
with Islam versus Christianity
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and certainly in the
Middle Ages Christianity
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was pretty big on this.
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You could be dealt
with severely by the church,
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even lose your life if you spoke
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in a sacrilegious
manner about holy things
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or even about the
holy mother church, right?
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You can, you lose
your life for centuries
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either in the
Christian or the Muslim world
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for openly sharing scripture
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and leading people to follow
a scriptural viewpoint versus
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what they'd been
traditionally taught.
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Yes.
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God's people are
always caught in the middle
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on both sides on this thing.
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And I do think in
this current debate
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between Islam and Christianity,
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there's many levels of it
but it's in everyone's interest
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and I've said it before
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to encourage
people to be familiar
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with what the other
person holds or holds this holy.
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And in the case of
Islam they should be
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more agreeable to allowing
others to read the Quran.
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I know there's big
inhibition about it.
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First of all it's not in English
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so therefore you
can't, you're not qualified.
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Well, it's--
There are translations--
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Well, I was about to say,
an English translations by
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and large are condemned
and not recommended to people.
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But knowledge is very good.
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And first of all we
should know our own holy book
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which most people don't.
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And then have some understanding
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of where the other
person is coming from.
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I take that too
within Christianity
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to another level.
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I challenge people all the time
'cause I do prophecy seminars.
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Have you studied
any other viewpoint
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other than the one you hold?
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Yeah.
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And you keep
coming back to scripture
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and finding out what fits.
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Most people aren't
willing to do that.
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Doesn't God in-- I
should remember the text,
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I know the text
but the reference,
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he says come, let
us reason together.
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It's in Isaiah. Yeah, that's it.
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I was going to guess at that
but I don't want to be wrong.
00:12:15.27\00:12:17.39
But, you know, God
calls us to rationality
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and too many
religions if not at this moment,
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then in the
past and Christianity
00:12:26.56\00:12:28.13
through the
Roman Catholic Church
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in the Middle Ages
didn't allow rationality.
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You take it
because the priest said it
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or the Holy Father said it.
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And Islam is
stuck in that model.
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Don't you think? Yeah.
00:12:39.15\00:12:40.25
The imam says it
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and we've got to
get away from that.
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We hadn't spoken
about it on the program
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but I'll think before you and I
00:12:50.54\00:12:52.29
were mentioning
El-Sisi of Egypt.
00:12:52.32\00:12:54.95
I really admire
his statement recently
00:12:54.98\00:12:58.57
which I'm sure there
will be something to pay for,
00:12:58.60\00:13:01.42
but he said that
Islam needs a reformation.
00:13:01.45\00:13:05.66
And I truly believe that.
00:13:05.69\00:13:08.57
Whether it changes
Islam remains to be seen
00:13:08.60\00:13:10.81
but what in my
view a reformation
00:13:10.84\00:13:13.11
is a critical
reexamination of your beliefs.
00:13:13.14\00:13:19.37
Yes.
00:13:19.40\00:13:20.44
Not what you've
taken or forced it on you,
00:13:20.47\00:13:22.68
don't just take it anymore,
look at it, think it through,
00:13:22.71\00:13:25.47
is this what I
really want to go with?
00:13:25.50\00:13:28.03
Interestingly
El-Sisi's government has
00:13:28.06\00:13:32.56
and the courts have
just sentenced Mohamed Morsi
00:13:32.59\00:13:38.02
to death along
with Mohamed Badie,
00:13:38.05\00:13:41.87
the spiritual guide
of the Muslim brotherhood
00:13:41.90\00:13:43.51
but they
haven't put him to death
00:13:43.54\00:13:45.81
for fear of the reaction
00:13:45.84\00:13:47.02
they would get
back from that one.
00:13:47.05\00:13:48.91
Well, we're getting
into a bigger things
00:13:48.94\00:13:50.44
that religion is at
play but I think there's--
00:13:50.47\00:13:53.23
Yeah, well, that's
just what I'm saying.
00:13:53.26\00:13:54.55
There's civil overreaction
00:13:54.58\00:13:56.19
and then there is an
element of show trials
00:13:56.22\00:13:59.05
and the whole
thing it's very sad
00:13:59.08\00:14:01.69
and you know,
we should pray for.
00:14:01.72\00:14:02.78
I'm just saying Egypt
00:14:02.81\00:14:03.91
is exceedingly
volatile at the moment.
00:14:03.94\00:14:05.40
Oh, yeah, we
should pray for Egypt.
00:14:05.43\00:14:07.06
You know, there's
a line of thinking
00:14:07.09\00:14:08.56
that El-Sisi's government
itself is not purely legitimate
00:14:08.59\00:14:12.73
much as many people might
fear the Muslim brotherhood,
00:14:12.76\00:14:18.02
they came to
power by the ballot box
00:14:18.05\00:14:19.75
and were removed by a cue.
00:14:19.78\00:14:21.71
Right.
00:14:21.74\00:14:23.00
So there is--
00:14:23.03\00:14:24.06
A highly supported cue.
00:14:24.09\00:14:25.58
Yes, I mean, I've
spoken to a few Egyptians
00:14:25.61\00:14:29.48
that I've stumbled
across and they have a--
00:14:29.51\00:14:32.83
well, they have a variety of use
00:14:32.86\00:14:33.98
but they all basically
say this pray for my country,
00:14:34.01\00:14:36.74
it's going through a
horrible time, horrible time.
00:14:36.77\00:14:40.46
And I don't know
that anybody did it
00:14:40.49\00:14:43.30
or there was an
easy way out of it
00:14:43.33\00:14:45.11
but I think we kept
it bottled up a long time
00:14:45.14\00:14:47.73
in the west by
supporting, not so much,
00:14:47.76\00:14:50.59
we shouldn't have
supported and say Obama Barrack,
00:14:50.62\00:14:53.98
but we should have
encouraged in certain areas
00:14:54.01\00:14:58.18
where we supported
00:14:58.21\00:14:59.42
the bottling up of
the situation and...
00:14:59.45\00:15:03.05
But, yes, it's worth remembering
00:15:03.08\00:15:04.39
as you no doubt no
that the Muslim brotherhood
00:15:04.42\00:15:07.38
is the father of
all of the jihadi ideas
00:15:07.41\00:15:11.41
that are
currently floating around.
00:15:11.44\00:15:12.91
Starting from the 1920s.
00:15:12.94\00:15:14.22
Yeah, it was the
modern reinterpretation
00:15:14.25\00:15:18.45
of the whole jihadi movement,
00:15:18.48\00:15:21.00
of the whole global
caliphate and so on.
00:15:21.03\00:15:24.31
And it was most pugnacious
00:15:24.34\00:15:26.30
not because they
were a lot of them,
00:15:26.33\00:15:28.98
never really were, but
it was an academic movement
00:15:29.01\00:15:31.93
that attempted to
sort of diffuse its ideas
00:15:31.96\00:15:35.82
through every
aspect of Middle Eastern
00:15:35.85\00:15:37.65
thought and economy.
00:15:37.68\00:15:39.04
And it successfully it's come up
00:15:39.07\00:15:40.43
in both Sunni and Shia Islam.
00:15:40.46\00:15:42.20
Yes. So it's been successful.
00:15:42.23\00:15:45.96
That the part I don't understand
00:15:45.99\00:15:47.05
is why they fumble it so badly
when they finally made power.
00:15:47.08\00:15:51.52
It just seem like, you
know, comedy of errors.
00:15:51.55\00:15:57.10
But that's what it
is, there is no question.
00:15:57.13\00:15:59.29
But El-Sisi's
comment was very good,
00:15:59.32\00:16:00.89
didn't you think,
he was bold, remember--
00:16:00.92\00:16:03.72
Yes, call for reformation.
00:16:03.75\00:16:04.95
Remember
00:16:04.98\00:16:09.48
the president of
Egypt too assassinated.
00:16:09.51\00:16:12.15
Sadat was assassinated for less.
00:16:12.18\00:16:16.68
It's really paid back
by the Muslim brotherhood
00:16:16.71\00:16:20.27
for him repressing them.
00:16:20.30\00:16:24.80
And here El-Sisi
who is repressive
00:16:24.83\00:16:27.78
and then calls for
a total revaluation
00:16:27.81\00:16:31.47
of Islam in itself.
00:16:31.50\00:16:34.31
And then bombs Islam
state supporters in Libya.
00:16:34.34\00:16:37.99
I know. Crazy world.
00:16:38.02\00:16:39.96
Crazy world. Yes, it is.
00:16:39.99\00:16:41.15
But a lot of the craziness
is religion and to be fair,
00:16:41.18\00:16:43.74
I don't want this
program to just turn in.
00:16:43.77\00:16:45.48
I don't think it is a
diatribe against Islam.
00:16:45.51\00:16:47.91
But it's a critical analysis.
00:16:47.94\00:16:49.71
But Christianity has
its moments big time.
00:16:49.74\00:16:53.33
Again why I say that
there are many Muslims
00:16:53.36\00:16:55.44
and many Christians
who serve the same false
00:16:55.47\00:16:57.24
god of force, fear and
anger, do it our way or else.
00:16:57.27\00:16:59.23
I like that term,
force, fear and anger.
00:16:59.26\00:17:02.07
Yeah.
00:17:02.10\00:17:03.17
Yeah. That's what they use.
00:17:03.20\00:17:04.61
Yeah, you know, you
can simple it further
00:17:04.64\00:17:07.13
and we've said it
on this program before.
00:17:07.16\00:17:09.37
Any time there's
force involved in,
00:17:09.40\00:17:10.93
you know, it's antithetical
of the true religion
00:17:10.96\00:17:13.42
and the true
religious liberty or compulsion.
00:17:13.45\00:17:16.74
In fact, yeah...
00:17:16.77\00:17:17.98
Both sides we got
to keep an eye on.
00:17:18.01\00:17:20.35
Well, I think it's human nature.
00:17:20.38\00:17:21.92
We got to keep an eye on.
00:17:21.95\00:17:23.00
Yes.
00:17:23.03\00:17:24.13
There was some
interesting studies recently
00:17:24.16\00:17:27.43
on the human brain
and human psychology,
00:17:27.46\00:17:30.26
you know, a lot of
scientists who I think probably
00:17:30.29\00:17:33.31
had different views
on religion themselves
00:17:33.34\00:17:35.86
pointed out that
there seems to be
00:17:35.89\00:17:37.05
a God shape void in
our-- the way our mind works,
00:17:37.08\00:17:40.87
we conditioned to think of God.
00:17:40.90\00:17:43.45
You can run it either way.
00:17:43.48\00:17:44.51
You can say,
well, if we developed,
00:17:44.54\00:17:47.76
you know, from the
microscopic organism
00:17:47.79\00:17:50.32
then this means that
God is out construct.
00:17:50.35\00:17:54.83
If you believe God made us,
00:17:54.86\00:17:56.56
then He made us structurally
to accommodate the idea of Him.
00:17:56.59\00:18:01.59
So neither one
really proves anything
00:18:01.62\00:18:03.69
but the facts are
today where human beings are,
00:18:03.72\00:18:06.65
we can't exist without God.
00:18:06.68\00:18:08.77
We have to make a
God one way or another.
00:18:08.80\00:18:11.23
And so human
nature I think colors
00:18:11.26\00:18:15.18
the way any religion especially
when it has power or like Islam
00:18:15.21\00:18:19.09
which doesn't have great power
but it has great frustration.
00:18:19.12\00:18:21.40
Yeah.
00:18:21.43\00:18:22.51
How it lashes out
00:18:22.54\00:18:24.41
and I think anybody of
good faith both in the spiritual
00:18:24.44\00:18:28.85
and in the progress of man
needs to fight against this,
00:18:28.88\00:18:31.34
we just can't allow,
00:18:31.37\00:18:33.68
you know, it's been
trendy to use the term
00:18:33.71\00:18:35.20
Islam old fascist in this case,
00:18:35.23\00:18:37.29
but it could by, you know,
00:18:37.32\00:18:39.16
doesn't go well
with Christianity,
00:18:39.19\00:18:40.81
but you know
Christian fascists or whatever.
00:18:40.84\00:18:43.90
A person with religious faith
00:18:43.93\00:18:45.43
and unbalanced
attitude toward their peers
00:18:45.46\00:18:48.79
just shouldn't be
allowed to adores that.
00:18:48.82\00:18:51.20
You know what did Jesus say
00:18:51.23\00:18:52.35
when He was asked
about religion, you remember?
00:18:52.38\00:18:54.94
About religion?
00:18:54.97\00:18:56.31
Well about, what
was the duty of men?
00:18:56.34\00:18:58.63
Oh. Rabbi Hillel stated it too.
00:18:58.66\00:19:01.57
Fear God and love God.
00:19:01.60\00:19:02.89
Yeah, that's your full,
whole duty to acknowledge God
00:19:02.92\00:19:07.02
but it's showing in how
you treat your fellow man.
00:19:07.05\00:19:10.44
And so again... No question.
00:19:10.47\00:19:12.06
No religion, I don't
care whether it's Islam,
00:19:12.09\00:19:13.61
Christianity, if
it's acting abusively
00:19:13.64\00:19:15.83
to other human beings,
00:19:15.86\00:19:17.32
it's not a
religion worth copying
00:19:17.35\00:19:18.95
and it's a religion
that must be countered,
00:19:18.98\00:19:21.11
not necessarily by the sword,
00:19:21.14\00:19:23.20
but it means that to diminish
00:19:23.23\00:19:25.56
it's influence and
its negative effect.
00:19:25.59\00:19:28.89
And so I don't have a
problem with speaking out
00:19:28.92\00:19:32.46
against this
manifestation of Islam
00:19:32.49\00:19:35.81
that's not to
condemn every human being
00:19:35.84\00:19:37.82
that's a Muslim or
even their root ideas
00:19:37.85\00:19:41.22
which I may disagree with
00:19:41.25\00:19:42.39
but as it's
practiced in this aggressive,
00:19:42.42\00:19:45.62
you know, my way or
the highway approach,
00:19:45.65\00:19:47.42
it just can't be.
00:19:47.45\00:19:49.02
There's another
factor that might be playing
00:19:49.05\00:19:51.01
into this other
than just force my way.
00:19:51.04\00:19:54.44
There are people
that want to have power
00:19:54.47\00:19:57.51
and you know, gains
00:19:57.54\00:19:59.00
and everything are the same way.
00:19:59.03\00:20:00.78
You get people that
feel powerless joining a gang
00:20:00.81\00:20:04.33
so they can get power.
00:20:04.36\00:20:05.60
Yeah.
00:20:05.63\00:20:06.70
And you have powerless people
00:20:06.73\00:20:09.31
joining together trying
to exert power on others.
00:20:09.34\00:20:12.56
Well, that's human nature again.
00:20:12.59\00:20:13.67
Right, it's human nature.
00:20:13.70\00:20:14.78
Religion misuses that as
well as any other mechanism.
00:20:14.81\00:20:18.58
The imam mentality.
00:20:18.61\00:20:20.18
And I think that explains too
00:20:20.21\00:20:21.93
why a lot of young
people join ISON or ISIS.
00:20:21.96\00:20:26.63
You know, they're
feeling idealistic,
00:20:26.66\00:20:28.30
they want to make a difference
but they're just a little kid,
00:20:28.33\00:20:30.34
they're just a
teenager whatever what I do.
00:20:30.37\00:20:32.38
But here is a bunch
of likeminded people
00:20:32.41\00:20:35.45
that are scaring
the whole establishment.
00:20:35.48\00:20:38.49
To me it's-- in a
way it's a religious spin
00:20:38.52\00:20:41.80
on what happen in the 60s.
00:20:41.83\00:20:43.49
you know, the hippie movement
00:20:43.52\00:20:46.63
and the ultimate
lifestyles and all the rest.
00:20:46.66\00:20:49.05
That was very
empowering to people
00:20:49.08\00:20:50.74
that didn't want
to go to Vietnam.
00:20:50.77\00:20:53.89
Yeah.
00:20:53.92\00:20:57.17
Back to your lectures
00:20:57.20\00:20:58.89
which is the
central of discussion
00:20:58.92\00:21:01.27
I want to talk to you about.
00:21:01.30\00:21:04.63
What will be arbiter of success
00:21:04.66\00:21:06.85
and I know that
you are comfortable
00:21:06.88\00:21:09.43
in dealing with a lot
of non-mainline Christians.
00:21:09.46\00:21:14.43
You've been getting Muslims
and probably lot of seculars
00:21:14.46\00:21:17.43
along the heathens.
00:21:17.46\00:21:18.53
Do you think it's
a legitimate thing
00:21:18.56\00:21:19.84
to mix descriptions
of political developments
00:21:19.87\00:21:23.80
and pull it back
into biblical prophecy?
00:21:23.83\00:21:26.34
Do you think that works
00:21:26.37\00:21:27.41
or is it just
tantalize them little bit?
00:21:27.44\00:21:31.00
I tell them all
the time what my--
00:21:31.03\00:21:34.22
what I consider the success
00:21:34.25\00:21:37.05
that people will
be drawn to Jesus
00:21:37.08\00:21:39.53
and back to the Bible for study.
00:21:39.56\00:21:43.25
Wonderful. Let's
take a break now.
00:21:43.28\00:21:44.97
We'll be back shortly
to finish the program.
00:21:45.00\00:21:47.33