Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Tim Roosenburg
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000288A
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00:21 Welcome to "The Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is the program that brings you news, views, 00:27 discussion, analysis, inside information 00:30 if you like on religious liberty events 00:33 in the United States and around the world. 00:35 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine 00:39 and my guest on this program is Tim Roosenberg 00:42 and he's been on other programs 00:45 and I've introduced you as an author, 00:47 a prophecy lecturer and, 00:51 I can even say a motivational speaker of sorts but, 00:54 I want to exploit part of your background. 00:56 I know you for many years you've been a church pastor. 00:58 Yes. 01:00 Which given that you're talking about 01:03 religious political events. 01:04 It's probably a good background, you know, 01:06 as I remember Stallone was a seminary student. 01:10 Thank you. What a comparison. 01:12 Yeah, you know, the some of them chase the world 01:14 with bad politic and its an uncanny number 01:18 of public figures if you really look at it 01:20 that were either from the children of ministers 01:26 or one time religious students. 01:28 So it seems to go together, great ideas 01:31 and being a pastor and I'd like to tap 01:34 into you some of your great ideas on pastor-- 01:36 We will see if I have great ideas. 01:37 On religious liberty. 01:39 Yeah, you know what, you and I've talked 01:41 and we'll talk more probably about Islam, 01:44 which is your focus at the moment. 01:46 And there's many challenges to religious liberty 01:49 around the world but the greatest challenge 01:51 that I see as I look to my own membership, 01:54 my own church how do you involve the members, 02:00 how do you get a buy in into the concepts 02:03 and the goals and the action of religious liberty? 02:08 But-- we'll start it in another way. 02:09 Do you remember any of you-- 02:11 Buying period from the young. 02:12 Yeah, have you-- 02:13 have you ever met any of your members? 02:15 Do you remember any of your members 02:16 who were oppose to religious liberty? 02:20 Yes. 02:21 Oh, you have. Okay, tell me. 02:23 I never have. 02:25 Well, they have their viewpoint, 02:26 they don't want anyone else 02:27 to be able to share their viewpoint. 02:28 Oh, yeah, but they're not against religious liberty. 02:30 Well, they say they are for it 02:32 but they're actions are speaking pretty loudly to-- 02:34 Yeah, now I agree with that. 02:37 So you agree with me, 02:38 and I will state what I've seen. 02:40 You know I've been in communist countries, 02:41 I've been in some dictatorships, 02:44 different variations on so called open societies 02:48 and the-- the leaders and the people. 02:49 They're all for religious liberty. 02:51 You know, the communist system 02:53 used to have religious liberty in the constitution. 02:55 Yeah, so-- 02:56 But what they mean what is very, very different. 02:59 Yes. So your point is correct. 03:00 But I've-- this is not-- 03:02 I've yet to come across a person who says, 03:04 I'm not for religious liberty, bad concept. 03:07 I don't want to grant other people anything 03:09 or I don't think we should be free to practice faith. 03:11 Its not gonna happen. 03:13 But yet they define it differently. 03:15 But how do you get them 03:16 even with the wrong idea on religious liberty. 03:18 How do you get them to do something about it? 03:20 How do you get them to, you know, 03:22 from our perspective support the magazine? 03:24 How do you get them to write to their politicians 03:27 to even just speak 03:29 to their fellow members in favor of this? 03:32 We both kind of have an interesting history. 03:36 Take a look at history, 03:38 when did people get involved in situations 03:42 when they feel they are at risk? 03:45 It's the rare exception 03:48 when somebody will go defend somebody else. 03:51 Yeah. 03:52 And so the majority of people aren't gonna do 03:54 anything till they feel threatened. 03:55 It's a-- 03:57 And so your challenge and mine is to help them see 03:59 how this threatens them in the long run. 04:01 Well, obviously you're going around talking on this, 04:03 your one aspect motivating people. 04:06 Oh, definitely. 04:07 But I don't know the answer to this. 04:09 There's a lot of complacency that play here. 04:12 There's a lot of narrow sectarian interest 04:15 and not concerned abut someone else's view. 04:17 And Islam, and the fundamentalist Islam 04:21 and terrorism is boarded right in front of people faces 04:24 and that really have to think a bit about it. 04:26 But even then I don't think most people 04:29 are motivated to-- to step out from the norm. 04:33 Well, I found one thing 04:34 that kind of has helped a little bit. 04:36 This is coming from my background 04:38 of what you were just talking about. 04:40 As I start sharing the North South struggle, 04:43 Islam, Christian people and Christianity struggle 04:47 and I just start pointing out that, 04:49 if the military option ends up being upon 04:52 in the hands of these powers and all of a sudden 04:56 you have people start reevaluation their career 04:58 sometimes, young people going out. 05:01 So if I end up military I could end up 05:04 upon in somebody's hands. 05:06 Yeah. 05:07 You know, that's a challenging concept because, 05:10 yeah, militaries are important for nations. 05:13 But what's your risk as a Christian 05:16 and being used as upon in a holy war now. 05:20 Well, more then a risk. It's a strong likelihood. 05:22 It's a strong likelihood. Yeah. 05:24 And all of a sudden young people are go in, 05:26 oh, this is about my choices. 05:29 Because they're uninvolved because they don't think 05:32 it makes a difference to their life. 05:33 Well, I don't know 05:35 what's the answer you are trying to give 05:36 but I guess part of what we're often 05:40 not supplying as a consequence to lack of religious liberty. 05:43 We even need to make that really clear 05:45 what are the consequence. 05:47 Yeah, and they're often stories 05:50 that don't involve the average person. 05:52 We usually shares stories of someone 05:53 who had accommodation in the workplace and so on. 05:58 Likely, I've tried more to show people 06:01 that weren't accommodated. 06:03 People that went to prison for their faith 06:06 not that that's gonna happen to them, 06:07 but that's really where you see religious liberty battled over 06:11 and tested, you know, in a way 06:14 that just a court case never can do. 06:16 Now last summer, I was in Nigeria. 06:18 I flew into Abuja and as we were driving trough the city, 06:24 I see a huge mosque, 06:27 that's the national mosque and a huge church, 06:32 that's the national church. 06:33 They're trying to be even handed with both. 06:37 But at the same time at the streets 06:40 our armed person at the-- entered major intersections, 06:43 armed personal carries with turned machine guns on top 06:47 and snowplows to push cars out of the way in-- 06:50 because, you know, car bomb 06:52 or something you've to get through the crowd of cars 06:56 and that's all holy war stuff going on. 06:58 You could drive through the same city in-- 07:02 on a Sunday, the streets are blocked 07:05 because they parked the cars everywhere on the major streets 07:08 so a car bomb can't get to a church. 07:10 Now here's an interesting thing. 07:12 Christianity and Islam in this conflict 07:15 neither have gone underground. 07:18 They are both coming out in the open 07:20 at the risk of being killed by the other side. 07:23 In that culture its not, 07:28 some non-definite they idea, 07:32 its real and they come out in the open 07:34 and until Christians see a conflict as real 07:37 or Muslims they just go along with a secular Christian, 07:42 whatever mix and somehow we got to let them see 07:45 it is real, not to become militaristic. 07:48 I think the reason that's so open in those countries 07:52 is that's impossible to go underground, because in-- 07:54 in traditional cultures and societies everybody knows 07:58 what everyone else is doing. 07:59 I mean, not each person knows what every other person 08:02 but they community-- 08:04 Oh, but -- but they've got signs 08:05 everywhere painted on their walls. 08:07 Well, yeah, but I mean they've gone that way 08:09 because there is no alternative. 08:10 You can't be invisible in your neighborhood, 08:12 which you can in the west. 08:14 You some of us even do it in that place. 08:16 You come and go and do you thing 08:18 and you just open the door and go in but you don't-- 08:21 your neighbor doesn't know what you're doing. 08:22 You don't know what your neighbor thinks a lot. 08:24 We're-- we're more insulated. 08:26 But certainly-- 08:27 But back to your question young people 08:29 if its not life and death issue they tend to ignore it. 08:33 And that's human nature 08:34 but I know that-- but it does trouble me. 08:36 I wish there was a way and we're trying certainly 08:39 within our church with an organization called 08:42 the North American Religious Liberty Association. 08:44 We're trying to turn it 08:45 in to an activist member driven thing. 08:48 Where we've got a car drive of true believe 08:51 that can do things. 08:53 Its proving hard. 08:55 And something just hit me. 08:57 I've gone in and testified it 08:59 on the state house level for religious liberty issues. 09:03 Questions of conscience cases and things like that, 09:06 when different bills were being discussed. 09:08 We should've been taking young people with us 09:11 to listen in and to realize it 09:13 it's really happening in our world. 09:16 We've done this a few times and just a few days ago 09:19 some of these NARLA people 09:20 we took them down to Washington 09:24 and visited in the offices of different senators 09:27 and Congressmen and they love it. 09:29 So we need to do more about that. 09:31 What about having them write up their experiences 09:37 in some of the magazines for their peers? 09:41 I've tried a little bit but we need more of its. 09:43 Its very hard to get stories from young people well, 09:46 we need to, we need to. 09:47 One of the things I used to do as a pastor 09:49 and I've often been involved with the young people 09:54 and one of my favorite things to do 09:56 is to get purposefully in an argument 10:00 with the young people. 10:01 There was a advocate kind of thing, 10:03 I'll go after and prove their spiritual viewpoint wrong 10:07 by taking somebody else's viewpoint 10:10 and just go after them and get them irritated 10:15 so that they start grabbing for their Bibles 10:17 to prove me wrong and at that's when I knew I made it. 10:20 When I can get them go into the Bible to prove 10:24 and then I'll eventually help them out, 10:28 You've given me a good idea. 10:29 Get thinking about that, when find-- 10:31 We need to sponsor religious liberty debates 10:35 with young people. 10:36 Oh, that would work. 10:38 Very much like debating societies 10:40 where you have teams and you gave them a premise 10:44 and or two sides of a premise. 10:47 Just assigned, because very good. 10:49 I found it very good sometimes, if you would-- 10:52 I think you know me well enough already 10:54 that I sometimes counter view, just you-- 10:56 Sure, I do too. 10:57 Just to draw at what the other person 11:00 can say to defend the view that I might have. 11:02 But think as a Seventh-day Adventist. 11:04 Yes. 11:05 We're not always-- like any church 11:07 you get people that have a viewpoint 11:09 and they're not willing to allow somebody else 11:11 have another viewpoint, may be a part of this discussion 11:14 and everything would be to learn. 11:16 Hey, we could actually love each other 11:19 and believe we're both going to heaven 11:20 even if we have a different viewpoint on some things 11:24 if we're both in love with Jesus. 11:25 Yeah. 11:26 Now anyhow this-- this is the moment. 11:29 Viewers, when the debating society for religious liberty 11:33 and I think I'm gonna push that, 11:35 but in a good suggestion. 11:37 But I know, you know, as much of the posters 11:41 and of many of the churches I'm sure to, 11:43 it's very hard to get members 11:46 and particularly young people to do things. 11:48 They will sit and listen if they come in the door, 11:51 but beyond that unless it's, you know-- 11:54 That we've got it. 11:55 Camping out or something that's just a regular activity, 11:57 they may not respond to involvement. 12:00 Yeah, I've-- wherever 12:01 I've been I try to get kids involved 12:03 in worship services and all kinds of things 12:05 because if they're not involved it's not theirs. 12:08 Yeah, you've got to by in at some point. 12:10 You get a young person involved 12:11 and the other kids are paying attention while they're there. 12:13 Absolutely, and I'm not young anymore or I feel that old. 12:17 But I'm-- the candles 12:19 are getting quite hot to me, you know that, 12:22 but I could remember 12:24 what its like to be young person 12:25 and I do believe young people are inherently idealistic 12:31 and that needs to be honest. 12:35 You might find some of those young people really good 12:37 what they're doing in those debating 12:39 then consider doing a team sermon 12:41 with one of those good ones. 12:42 Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah. 12:45 I did that one time and we had a truth split over, 12:49 a youth activities and-- and separating youth 12:52 from the church and a young person and I 12:56 get together and we did a team sermon 12:57 that help pull the church together. 13:01 Yeah it's a double head sword to have a separate service 13:04 for young people and they enjoy it 13:06 but they need to be incorporated 13:07 into the main group 13:09 and for them to lead out is a good thing. 13:12 But yeah, religious liberty can be lost very easily 13:16 in the world at large if its not individual people 13:19 that fight for it and argue for it and live it, advance it. 13:24 You know the -- communism 13:27 is in its twilight days in some ways 13:29 but it advanced by mostly young people. 13:32 But they vision some other more revolutionaries not here. 13:34 Islamic states mostly young people... 13:36 Oh, absolutely, yes, it's a good point. 13:38 Christianity is gonna have 13:39 to become young people pretty soon. 13:41 And the level of their commitment 13:43 of Islamic State is very interesting that, 13:45 a number of the young girls that they picked up 13:48 trying to leave the US. 13:49 They be going over there just to marry a revolution-- 13:52 to marry one of the Jihadi's 13:54 which is sort of strange 13:55 because the Jihadi is ready to die 13:58 and act suicidal so the marriage is probably 14:01 in potential not too long live but that's their contribution. 14:05 When unless you have something worth dying for, 14:07 you have anything worth living for. 14:08 Well, that's the statement, isn't it? 14:09 Yeah. 14:10 And you can see it in history that's pretty much true. 14:12 But I do know, again remembering 14:14 what its like as young person 14:16 and I don't know how get through those them. 14:19 It's a great concept to-- 14:22 you know, to spend yourself on something 14:25 and for an Islamic young person, 14:27 Islamic fundamentalist to die worth dying for, 14:30 but a young person doesn't understand this, 14:32 it's an abstraction. 14:34 So that they might die 14:37 but they are not really meaning to die. 14:38 Yeah. 14:40 They think they're immortal. 14:41 Right, young people do think. Yeah. 14:43 So, that's not just Islamic State, 14:47 that's why the Marines and all of rest they sign up 14:49 the 18-year-olds get involved. 14:52 Well, they are unaware of their mortality. 14:56 When they can still be taught to a follow orders. 14:58 Right, yeah. Oh, yeah. 15:00 Anyhow, that's another topic. 15:01 Now we need to have, a program on militarism 15:04 and how it affects religion. 15:07 Yes. And freedom issues. 15:09 But, yeah you've come up with some good suggestions. 15:15 May be we should take a break now 15:17 and we'll be back to continue this brainstorming 15:21 for religious liberty. |
Revised 2015-07-23