Welcome back.
00:00:05.15\00:00:06.68
We were getting into a
pretty heavy discussion
00:00:06.71\00:00:08.69
before the break
with guest Tim Roosenberg
00:00:08.72\00:00:12.46
about what might be
the solution on this.
00:00:12.53\00:00:14.88
So you were
saying openness, right?
00:00:14.91\00:00:16.99
Yeah.
00:00:17.02\00:00:18.06
Now, I am not saying
that's ever going to happen
00:00:18.09\00:00:19.58
but that would be the solution.
00:00:19.61\00:00:21.08
Well, no.
00:00:21.11\00:00:22.39
Be careful, what
you wish for may happen.
00:00:22.42\00:00:24.33
I would love it to happen.
00:00:24.36\00:00:25.40
You know, you are old enough too
00:00:25.43\00:00:27.49
and I am old enough to remember
the Soviet Union was betrayed
00:00:27.52\00:00:30.88
and then many ways was
a totally closed system.
00:00:30.91\00:00:35.17
They said, they wouldn't
let people out very easily
00:00:35.20\00:00:37.35
unless they trusted them
and it was hard to get it.
00:00:37.38\00:00:40.29
And they were able to sustain
00:00:40.32\00:00:42.10
the construct of
a secular religion
00:00:42.13\00:00:45.30
and the myth
that the Soviet Union
00:00:45.33\00:00:47.66
and the people's
paradise-- it was a paradise,
00:00:47.69\00:00:50.32
but once Perestroika
00:00:50.35\00:00:53.82
and-- I think Perestroika
was the open this and Glasnost--
00:00:53.85\00:00:57.43
No, Glasnost the openness
00:00:57.46\00:00:59.69
but it was
openness and restructuring.
00:00:59.72\00:01:01.61
And once that hit
there was no stopping it
00:01:01.64\00:01:04.40
and the whole
thing just withered away.
00:01:04.43\00:01:06.02
I myself think
certainly Saudi Arabia
00:01:06.05\00:01:09.21
a very close society
and some other places.
00:01:09.24\00:01:11.61
If this-- if the
light of day got in,
00:01:11.64\00:01:14.84
the light of public discuss
on religious issues got in
00:01:14.87\00:01:18.47
things would change real quick.
00:01:18.50\00:01:21.33
Yes, I agree but I am not sure
00:01:21.36\00:01:23.92
it's going to happen simply
00:01:23.95\00:01:25.26
because the anger levels
building up on both sides.
00:01:25.29\00:01:28.39
Yeah.
00:01:28.42\00:01:29.60
Well, and plus I am prejudice
00:01:29.63\00:01:32.36
because of my
study of Daniel 11.
00:01:32.39\00:01:34.79
So you think we need
less cartoons to throw away?
00:01:34.82\00:01:38.37
I would never
draw a cartoon of--
00:01:38.40\00:01:42.40
No, I would never do that either
00:01:42.43\00:01:43.83
but you know, on
the western value
00:01:43.86\00:01:46.12
and the enlightenment
view of the rights of man
00:01:46.15\00:01:48.53
and free speech
and all of that--
00:01:48.56\00:01:49.59
Now, I believe--
00:01:49.62\00:01:50.66
We can't afford to say that
00:01:50.69\00:01:53.38
you can only do things
that I am comfortable with
00:01:53.41\00:01:55.71
it's only on the limits
that you test that level.
00:01:55.74\00:01:57.97
Now, I am not saying
00:01:58.00\00:02:00.17
others shouldn't
be allowed to it,
00:02:00.20\00:02:01.87
I said I would not do it.
00:02:01.90\00:02:03.65
No, I think it's very bad taste.
00:02:03.68\00:02:05.25
I have a problem with
a Christian doing that
00:02:05.28\00:02:07.71
because Jesus said,
00:02:07.74\00:02:08.77
"Do unto others as you
would have them do unto you."
00:02:08.80\00:02:10.66
Absolutely.
00:02:10.69\00:02:11.72
And so if I am truly a Christian
00:02:11.75\00:02:14.52
I need to show
that to secular Muslims,
00:02:14.55\00:02:20.55
any kind of people
00:02:20.58\00:02:22.75
if I am truly
trying to follow God's way.
00:02:22.78\00:02:25.30
And not just
Mohamed or Islamic themes,
00:02:25.33\00:02:29.87
you know, we live in a--
00:02:29.90\00:02:31.82
I don't believe it's
truly a post-Christian era
00:02:31.85\00:02:33.96
but it's been characterize
as post-Christian era
00:02:33.99\00:02:36.01
but it certainly
within Christian--
00:02:36.04\00:02:37.95
normally Christian community
00:02:37.98\00:02:39.24
there's all sorts of profanities
00:02:39.27\00:02:41.45
and perversions, visual
00:02:41.48\00:02:44.04
and other perversions
of faith that are allowed.
00:02:44.07\00:02:46.76
So it's not like
even with the cartoons
00:02:46.79\00:02:48.74
that were published Islam
00:02:48.77\00:02:49.92
was being
particularly singled out--
00:02:49.95\00:02:52.85
Everybody is getting--
00:02:52.88\00:02:53.91
Right.
00:02:53.94\00:02:54.97
And you know, we
have to allow that
00:02:55.00\00:02:58.68
given our libertarian viewpoint
00:02:58.71\00:03:02.88
that is the
deceleration of independence
00:03:02.91\00:03:04.45
in the US points
out that these are in--
00:03:04.48\00:03:06.40
should be unalienable right.
00:03:06.43\00:03:08.43
It's not given to
someone else to restrict.
00:03:08.46\00:03:11.01
But it would be nice
if we lived in a culture
00:03:11.04\00:03:14.13
of interaction between religions
00:03:14.16\00:03:15.90
where insults were not
thrown just to offend people.
00:03:15.93\00:03:19.17
So if I was a Muslim leader,
00:03:19.20\00:03:21.31
I think there
would be a far greater
00:03:21.34\00:03:23.06
and more effective
response to Mohammed cartoons.
00:03:23.09\00:03:28.53
If whoever was doing
00:03:28.56\00:03:29.76
it was claming
to be a Christian,
00:03:29.79\00:03:31.50
I would just look at them
and say, are you a Christian?
00:03:31.53\00:03:34.46
Yeah.
00:03:34.49\00:03:35.52
Did Jesus say to
do this kind of thing
00:03:35.55\00:03:39.02
or did He say to do
kind things to others?
00:03:39.05\00:03:41.71
And all of a sudden
00:03:41.74\00:03:42.96
instead of it being
Islam that looks bad,
00:03:42.99\00:03:45.29
all of a sudden
that particular Christian
00:03:45.32\00:03:47.08
would look bad
00:03:47.11\00:03:48.21
and they would
not want to keep doing
00:03:48.24\00:03:50.00
what they're doing.
00:03:50.03\00:03:51.07
Yeah.
00:03:51.10\00:03:52.13
But by fighting
fire with fire again,
00:03:52.16\00:03:54.85
it just ramps up
higher and higher.
00:03:54.88\00:03:57.71
Openness is the solution.
00:03:57.74\00:03:58.99
It's a bad dynamic and
people are being manipulated
00:03:59.02\00:04:02.42
because you
know, at Friday prayers
00:04:02.45\00:04:04.91
the mullah gets up
there and rants and raves
00:04:04.94\00:04:07.04
and the people have may not
have even seen the cartoons,
00:04:07.07\00:04:09.55
they take to the streets.
00:04:09.58\00:04:10.61
So it's-- its
religious manipulation
00:04:10.64\00:04:14.27
which all religions indulge in
00:04:14.30\00:04:16.09
but at the moment
we're seeing it done
00:04:16.12\00:04:19.27
greatly by this
particular religious identity,
00:04:19.30\00:04:23.56
to speak in code.
00:04:23.59\00:04:26.56
By the-- you
know, we're talking ISIS
00:04:26.59\00:04:28.54
and all the rest of this
which is kind of interesting.
00:04:28.57\00:04:32.22
When I take a
look back at the map,
00:04:32.25\00:04:33.77
King of North, King
of the South in Israel
00:04:33.80\00:04:36.92
there is a day of worship
00:04:36.95\00:04:38.88
that is a sign of
which side you are on.
00:04:38.91\00:04:41.36
You have the King
of the North, Sunday,
00:04:41.39\00:04:43.80
the King of the South, Friday,
00:04:43.83\00:04:45.23
Israel, God's day,
the Sabbath in the middle.
00:04:45.26\00:04:48.73
Yeah.
00:04:48.76\00:04:49.80
And you have a conflict
00:04:49.83\00:04:51.22
and there are lot
of people over time
00:04:51.25\00:04:52.75
that have looked
at the day of worship
00:04:52.78\00:04:54.28
as some kind of a sigh or
code or whatever at the end
00:04:54.31\00:04:57.04
and all of a sudden you
have three different days
00:04:57.07\00:05:01.43
spiritual representing
peoples that get caught up
00:05:01.46\00:05:05.63
in this geo-political conflict.
00:05:05.66\00:05:07.46
No, I agree with you
00:05:07.49\00:05:08.86
and of course the
Seventh-Day Adventists
00:05:08.89\00:05:10.38
have made a point
of explaining that
00:05:10.41\00:05:13.68
the Sabbath that we should keep.
00:05:13.71\00:05:16.88
I mean, the
Sabbath is a concept,
00:05:16.91\00:05:19.61
Christians
understand that the Pope of Rome
00:05:19.64\00:05:21.67
came out with a
document few years ago
00:05:21.70\00:05:24.60
deals about the Sabbath.
00:05:24.63\00:05:26.58
But if you really
read the Bible closely
00:05:26.61\00:05:29.72
you'll see that it
was the seventh day,
00:05:29.75\00:05:31.60
the Saturday always kept.
00:05:31.63\00:05:33.78
We're on the same weekly cycle.
00:05:33.81\00:05:36.52
And different people have
different reasons for the days
00:05:36.55\00:05:39.30
but you're on to something.
00:05:39.33\00:05:41.64
I spoke to a
Muslim imam years ago
00:05:41.67\00:05:44.09
to try and to find out
why do they keep Friday.
00:05:44.12\00:05:47.66
That's their tradition.
00:05:47.69\00:05:48.72
Yeah, but what tradition?
00:05:48.75\00:05:49.94
It was animist
tradition before Islam.
00:05:49.97\00:05:52.45
They already
were keeping a Friday.
00:05:52.48\00:05:54.58
And this imam was
head imam of the Washington
00:05:54.61\00:05:57.78
that I spoke with and he said,
00:05:57.81\00:05:59.23
well, Mohammed didn't
want to trouble them too much
00:05:59.26\00:06:02.62
and change it so
they accepted a pagan day.
00:06:02.65\00:06:06.19
So it's not-- it's a
marker of their origins
00:06:06.22\00:06:10.60
and the Roman Catholic Church
00:06:10.63\00:06:12.47
and the most of Christianity
00:06:12.50\00:06:14.80
even Protestantism
still keeping Sunday.
00:06:14.83\00:06:16.61
Which is a pagan day.
00:06:16.64\00:06:17.68
The origins of
that are undeniable.
00:06:17.71\00:06:20.54
They can argue the
authority to change it
00:06:20.57\00:06:23.50
and all that sort of stuff
00:06:23.53\00:06:24.57
and that stands
for the resurrection.
00:06:24.60\00:06:27.58
Yes, but it was
the day of the sun,
00:06:27.61\00:06:29.23
of sun worship, the
predated Christianity.
00:06:29.26\00:06:32.42
So what did--
00:06:32.45\00:06:33.63
And Saturday Sabbath
is no interceding to that
00:06:33.66\00:06:36.26
other than the
God's create of dictate.
00:06:36.29\00:06:39.44
Why did Islam
the King of the South
00:06:39.47\00:06:41.43
do the Sabbath keepers?
00:06:41.46\00:06:42.49
They weren't
that friendly to them.
00:06:42.52\00:06:44.25
The King of the North
00:06:44.28\00:06:45.32
wasn't that
friendly to Sabbath keepers.
00:06:45.35\00:06:46.75
They're always
caught in the middle.
00:06:46.78\00:06:47.82
Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:47.85\00:06:49.50
It's amazing.
00:06:49.53\00:06:50.58
The prophecy is to
you're political and spiritual.
00:06:50.61\00:06:53.23
But I think we need to
raise the alarm on the Sabbath
00:06:53.26\00:06:57.44
more than ever
before the you are not saved
00:06:57.47\00:07:00.34
by keeping one day or another
00:07:00.37\00:07:02.07
but it can be a marker
of your saving attitude
00:07:02.10\00:07:05.85
and you're pointing
toward literally to God
00:07:05.88\00:07:09.19
or little bit more comprising.
00:07:09.22\00:07:11.95
To a more human system
00:07:11.98\00:07:13.79
this comprise]
with a world than this.
00:07:13.82\00:07:16.80
The day of worship
actually is pointing that out.
00:07:16.83\00:07:19.24
It's amazing.
00:07:19.27\00:07:20.76
Oh, it has to be, of course.
00:07:20.79\00:07:21.85
And if as a Christian
00:07:21.88\00:07:24.91
I side with trying to pull
the rights of the Friday keeper
00:07:24.94\00:07:30.38
whose next?
00:07:30.41\00:07:31.51
Yeah.
00:07:31.54\00:07:32.57
Oh, no, I--
00:07:32.60\00:07:33.66
So again--
00:07:33.69\00:07:34.73
I think we were
going this direction,
00:07:34.76\00:07:36.12
but in an editorial I just wrote
00:07:36.15\00:07:39.12
I thought it was good
to mention A.T. Jones,
00:07:39.15\00:07:41.05
our Religious Liberty
pioneer from Adventism
00:07:41.08\00:07:43.72
giving testimony
in congress in 1888
00:07:43.75\00:07:46.14
against a Sunday Law proposal.
00:07:46.17\00:07:49.09
And he help
defeat it with some other
00:07:49.12\00:07:52.67
well meaning
people in the community
00:07:52.70\00:07:54.85
but he made a good point there.
00:07:54.88\00:07:56.41
He said, even if
you enacted a law
00:07:56.44\00:07:59.73
requiring the
seventh day Sabbath be kept,
00:07:59.76\00:08:04.01
he says, I would have
opposed that just as strongly.
00:08:04.04\00:08:07.01
And than we need keep
that principal in mind.
00:08:07.04\00:08:08.87
Yes.
00:08:08.90\00:08:09.93
So there is a right day
00:08:09.96\00:08:11.22
but there's a wrong
way to advance any belief.
00:08:11.25\00:08:14.70
But never enforce it by force.
00:08:14.73\00:08:16.50
Right.
00:08:16.53\00:08:17.57
And I think the Sabbath
is a pretty good litmus test
00:08:17.60\00:08:20.84
but as far as the
religious liberty,
00:08:20.87\00:08:22.75
the absolute litmus test
is, is there collusion involved?
00:08:22.78\00:08:25.40
Yes.
00:08:25.43\00:08:26.47
And we must love
our fellow human beings
00:08:26.50\00:08:29.35
to have the right to be wrong,
00:08:29.38\00:08:31.40
the right to make
their own spiritual choices.
00:08:31.43\00:08:33.60
Yes.
00:08:33.63\00:08:34.87
That would solve the whole mess.
00:08:34.90\00:08:36.47
Well, it would
certainly go a long way.
00:08:36.50\00:08:39.38
You know, we don't
have too much time left
00:08:39.41\00:08:41.15
but coming on
this, I've got a book
00:08:41.18\00:08:43.30
and I need to have it
reviewed in Liberty even.
00:08:43.33\00:08:47.07
The title of it
is something like
00:08:47.10\00:08:49.56
the death wish of the
major world religions.
00:08:49.59\00:08:52.47
But it points out
that Islam, Christianly
00:08:52.50\00:08:55.47
and to some degree Judaism
00:08:55.50\00:08:57.78
all holding
apocalyptic end term scenarios.
00:08:57.81\00:09:02.84
Right.
00:09:02.87\00:09:03.90
And in different threads
within those belief systems
00:09:03.93\00:09:06.39
sometimes working
actively toward it
00:09:06.42\00:09:09.25
that whole world is
sort of on a collusion course
00:09:09.28\00:09:12.08
for a self
fulfilling religious prophecy,
00:09:12.11\00:09:15.73
if you like.
00:09:15.76\00:09:17.26
Certainly the
Middle East shows that
00:09:17.29\00:09:18.89
it's a cauldron of
expectations of trouble.
00:09:18.92\00:09:22.32
If you are secular
you look at this and say
00:09:22.35\00:09:25.16
religion is just gonna
take us into a black hole.
00:09:25.19\00:09:29.08
I look at it a
little differently
00:09:31.55\00:09:32.73
as a committed Christian
00:09:32.76\00:09:34.01
and looking at
scripture and where it's heading
00:09:34.04\00:09:36.47
but this is exactly
where scripture said
00:09:36.50\00:09:38.73
we'd be headed into
what looks like a dead end
00:09:38.76\00:09:42.80
and we're rescued.
00:09:42.83\00:09:44.23
But you're going to see Muslims
going to say the same thing
00:09:44.26\00:09:46.18
about trying to get
people into fight against them
00:09:46.21\00:09:48.13
in Syria, the Islamic State.
00:09:48.16\00:09:50.34
So I can understand
the seculars looking back
00:09:50.37\00:09:52.64
and going
religion is the problem.
00:09:52.67\00:09:55.28
But we need--
that's one of the reasons
00:09:55.31\00:09:58.35
religious
liberty is so important.
00:09:58.38\00:09:59.83
We need to be coming across
with a prophetic viewpoint
00:09:59.86\00:10:02.98
that is also pushing
religions liberty in it
00:10:03.01\00:10:05.35
and the liberty of others--
00:10:05.38\00:10:06.41
And also emphasis
00:10:06.44\00:10:09.96
the individual's
spiritual life and fulfillment--
00:10:09.99\00:10:12.29
Yes.
00:10:12.32\00:10:13.58
And I do think
Islamic State and so on,
00:10:13.61\00:10:16.00
they've-- even though
they have sympathy with Islam
00:10:16.03\00:10:19.14
there is a danger
that they're all focused
00:10:19.17\00:10:21.46
on a political movement
00:10:21.49\00:10:24.27
to advance their religion
00:10:24.30\00:10:25.89
but not emphasizing
as much the spirituality
00:10:25.92\00:10:28.88
of their own faith.
00:10:28.91\00:10:30.05
That's always a danger.
00:10:30.08\00:10:31.32
I know that they--
00:10:31.35\00:10:32.69
they have their
own religions police
00:10:32.72\00:10:34.81
in the areas they conquer
00:10:34.84\00:10:36.11
but it strikes me as it's more
00:10:36.14\00:10:37.90
an army of religious occupation
00:10:37.93\00:10:40.47
than spontaneous
religions expression.
00:10:40.50\00:10:44.33
And they get the booty
of war in multiple ways.
00:10:44.36\00:10:46.80
Yes.
00:10:46.83\00:10:47.86
And there's a really
twisted viewpoint of mixing
00:10:47.89\00:10:52.24
the booty of war
with religious viewpoint.
00:10:52.27\00:10:55.65
Well, I believe that the war
00:10:55.68\00:10:59.03
and religion are
largely incompatible.
00:10:59.06\00:11:00.93
Obviously God fights
out wars on our behalf
00:11:00.96\00:11:04.27
so He's the ultimate general.
00:11:04.30\00:11:05.53
But we shouldn't be
involved in this, we should--
00:11:05.56\00:11:09.05
I agree.
00:11:09.08\00:11:10.13
There's hymn that says,
by deeds of love and mercy
00:11:10.16\00:11:12.39
and not by swords land clashing.
00:11:12.42\00:11:14.09
Yes.
00:11:14.12\00:11:15.37
So, ISIL, where is it going?
00:11:15.40\00:11:19.66
What's gonna happen with this?
00:11:19.69\00:11:21.74
It's sort of a
summation is it? Yeah.
00:11:21.77\00:11:24.24
The threat that's going away
00:11:24.27\00:11:25.31
or is it the
beginning of the worse?
00:11:25.34\00:11:26.82
ISIL, I don't
think it's gonna go away.
00:11:26.85\00:11:28.89
It's going to continue to
morph into maybe other things
00:11:28.92\00:11:34.06
but ISIL will
ultimately be focusing in--
00:11:34.09\00:11:39.01
Well, let me do say
this, radical Islam,
00:11:39.04\00:11:41.74
it may not be ISIL
00:11:41.77\00:11:42.84
but radical Islam
will continue to grow
00:11:42.87\00:11:44.60
until it's ended
in one way or another.
00:11:44.63\00:11:46.93
Outside of the Islamic world
I don't think too many people
00:11:49.07\00:11:52.44
give a great deal of
thought to the crusades
00:11:52.47\00:11:55.12
but the history
books explain it quite well
00:11:55.15\00:11:57.76
and they tell that one
of the most fearsome aspects
00:11:57.79\00:12:00.35
of the crusader efforts
to move into the Holy Land
00:12:00.38\00:12:03.57
where they continuing
attacks that they received
00:12:03.60\00:12:06.55
in an underhanded way
often from the assassins,
00:12:06.58\00:12:10.25
these were group
of religions zealots
00:12:10.28\00:12:13.07
that came out of
the mountain fastness
00:12:13.10\00:12:14.79
and were all but unstoppable
00:12:14.82\00:12:16.38
because they were so
fanatical, so blood thirsty,
00:12:16.41\00:12:19.15
so unexpected in their attacks
00:12:19.18\00:12:23.78
that it was almost
no defense against them.
00:12:23.81\00:12:26.96
In some ways ISIL
was fulfilling that.
00:12:26.99\00:12:29.73
It spread panic
in their own area
00:12:29.76\00:12:32.94
and in the larger
worlds it's made us aware
00:12:32.97\00:12:34.98
that this perhaps a force that
00:12:35.01\00:12:37.25
there's no
congenital answers to.
00:12:37.28\00:12:40.19
But as always we need to realize
00:12:40.22\00:12:42.28
that prophecy is at work here
00:12:42.31\00:12:44.84
that faith
ultimately has to be rewarded
00:12:44.87\00:12:47.87
and it should not be intimated
00:12:47.90\00:12:49.43
just because someone
threatens your faith.
00:12:49.46\00:12:52.39
And I believe as we enter
into what could be characterize
00:12:52.42\00:12:55.23
as this new crusades of thoughts
00:12:55.26\00:12:57.61
that ultimately
alternatively faith,
00:12:57.64\00:12:59.69
not violence will win the day.
00:12:59.72\00:13:01.94
For Liberty
Insider, I am Lincoln Steed.
00:13:03.54\00:13:07.31