Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Tim Roosenburg
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000285A
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00:20 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:23 This is a program bringing you news, 00:24 views, discussion and up-to-date information 00:27 on religious liberty developments in the U.S. 00:30 and around the world. 00:31 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:35 And my guest on this program is Tim Roosenberg 00:38 and I could categorize you as author 00:41 and widely traveled lecturer on a particular topic. 00:46 And that's what I want to talk with you today, Tim. 00:50 I've got your book here 00:51 and it's "Islam and Christianity." 00:53 "In prophecy." 00:54 "In prophecy." Yes, but it was small. 00:58 But I was about to say, 00:59 I think anybody would sort of spark to that combination 01:03 because with the terrorists threat today it's predominantly 01:09 from the Islamic side and sometimes it's seen as, 01:14 you know, the crusades all over again 01:16 and the antagonisms of the past, 01:17 they are coming up to haunt us. 01:19 And so I think we need to know 01:21 what was behind this dynamic. 01:23 It actually is a repeat of what's going on in the past. 01:25 Yeah. 01:28 I'm forgetting there was a famous statement, you know. 01:30 Of course the cliché history repeats itself. 01:33 But someone said, 01:34 it's very difficult to predict especially the future. 01:40 But the patterns of human behaviors do repeat, 01:43 don't they? 01:44 We are in a third round of repeat. 01:46 Right. 01:47 And when you have religious models 01:48 of course that lays out the thinking pattern 01:51 and sometimes the agenda 01:52 for people of a particular faith. 01:55 Not only it's a third round of repeat. 01:57 My understanding of Bible prophecy is, in Daniel 11, 02:00 we're on the third round of the conflict predicted there 02:03 and it's been accurate for 2500 years. 02:05 Well, just tell me briefly what are the three, 02:08 the three rounds, the first one? 02:11 I'm coming from Daniel 11 and the first round is-- 02:16 This is Daniel 11 in the Bible. 02:18 Daniel 11 in the Bible. 02:20 The first round is Daniel 11:25-28 02:26 which is the conflict of the crusades 02:29 when the European Nations vowed people at Christianity 02:32 because they were afraid of the spread of Islam. 02:35 The second conflict, the verses 29 to 39, 02:39 when the Christian nations of Europe 02:41 again organized behind papal led Christianity 02:44 because they were afraid of the spread of Islam 02:45 and the Ottoman Islamic Empire, 02:48 the second Caliphate if you would. 02:50 And the third and final one is in the time of the end 02:54 and it's the same two players again in Daniel 11. 02:57 So it will be the third round and this one is the third 03:00 and final conflict between those two powers. 03:03 It's an interesting Biblical 03:06 take on the secular history of the conflict 03:11 between nations and the rise of, 03:13 really two religions, Christianity-- 03:15 Lot of people don't realize it, 03:16 but by the time Islam began and it was a small beginnings 03:20 for a while around 610 I think it was. 03:23 Christianity was 600 years old. 03:26 Yes. 03:27 Was an old religion? 03:29 So repetitively speaking Islam is the new, new religion 03:33 which challenged Christianity. 03:35 By the way you can get those same three conflicts 03:37 not quite as clearly, 03:38 but in Revelation called the three vows. 03:42 It's a good point. 03:44 And in the back of my book 03:46 we have from 1100 through the 1930s 03:49 about 60 different Bible commentators 03:52 who saw that in Revelation. 03:54 Let's go back apart from the three cycles, 03:57 you circle, what led you to get into this topic 04:01 because you do travel pretty widely 04:03 and lecture on this? 04:05 I've even heard your lecture 04:07 which is very good and quite long, complicated. 04:11 So you're giving these seminars 04:13 all over North America predominantly. 04:15 Predominantly North America, but-- 04:17 Yeah, but some further a field. 04:19 Yes. 04:20 Got in the Africa and Australia last year. 04:23 And by the way, 04:25 we were in north eastern Nigeria last year, 04:27 Boko Haram territory, that was interesting. 04:30 Front line. 04:31 But anyway. 04:33 You were asking again-- 04:34 How you got into this? 04:36 Yes. 04:37 What sparked you? 04:39 When I became a Christian in my late teens, 04:41 I fell in love with Jesus. 04:43 And to me Bible prophecy was all about meeting Jesus. 04:45 Some people get in the Bible prophecy 04:47 and there are all those horrible things and everything. 04:49 To me it's-- Jesus is coming again 04:53 and I'm looking forward to meeting Jesus. 04:54 Right. 04:55 That's the best way to see this. 04:57 It was, you know, otherwise people just focus 04:59 on all of the images 05:00 of destruction and apocalyptic end, 05:04 it sort of fearful, you know, as the Bible itself says, 05:06 you know, a fear for what's coming upon the world, 05:08 we shouldn't be like that. 05:09 But yeah, we shouldn't. 05:11 Jesus said, "Let not your heart be troubled." 05:13 When you're looking at all the stuff. 05:14 Why? 05:15 Because He's coming to rescue His people. 05:17 And so that's what I try to get across in my seminars. 05:20 But as I was always loving history and prophecy 05:24 and so over the years I do prophecy seminars 05:27 and stuff while I was pastoring. 05:29 And I've gone on an online disagreement 05:31 with somebody back around the year 2000 05:35 about the role of Islam. 05:37 It's after 9/11, huh? 05:38 Just before. 05:39 Oh, just sorry, yes. 05:41 9/11 was 2001, September 11 of course. 05:44 Yeah. 05:45 And, so what happens is, 05:47 I'm taking look at this material 05:49 and I'm arguing mostly in my head 05:51 not so much in the online. 05:54 This person saw Islam 05:55 and papal led Christianity uniting together 05:58 and becoming one power fulfilling what would, 06:01 they were looking at Revelation 13:3, 06:02 and all the world follows. 06:05 And so they are looking at this unity 06:07 and I'm looking at that, I'm thinking, 06:08 oh, come on, they are like polar, 06:10 opposites like north and south. 06:12 And as that's going through my mind 06:14 it's like the Holy Spirit slaps me and to guess, 06:16 Daniel 11 that chapter you don't understand very well? 06:19 Look at it again. 06:20 I opened it up with that north, south comment in my mind. 06:23 All of a sudden the history of all the way through 06:27 from the time of Christ till today was right 06:29 in front of me and I could see it in today's world. 06:32 Well, let me throw you to the lions. 06:35 Oh, go for it. 06:37 Of an idea, it's not what you'd expect. 06:39 I want to lay to rest one idea that I've heard put forward. 06:45 I know where it comes from but people are repeating it 06:47 when I travel around talking on this topic. 06:49 Someone has given them the idea 06:53 that Islam was begun as basically an experiment 06:59 by the Roman Catholic Church 07:02 to clear the way against other religions. 07:06 Okay. Right. 07:07 Did you have historical basis of that? 07:09 I have heard that story so many times. 07:14 Let me just 'cause no matter what I say on this one, 07:17 somebody is gonna be irritated with me on this one. 07:21 What did you say about throwing me to the lions. 07:23 So here we go. 07:25 Bottom-line is it doesn't much matter which way it was. 07:30 It is from the politics. 07:31 No. 07:32 Because the result is the same, you still have a conflict. 07:35 All right. 07:37 That's said, I'll still answer your question. 07:39 That's said, I'll still answer your question. 07:43 And that is, 07:44 I don't think the papacy started Mohammed. 07:50 Based on the prophecy it is reaction in Revelation 07:54 against the images that were brought 07:56 into the Christian churches. 07:57 Now you're getting into history. 08:00 This is historically easily approvable. 08:04 Muhammad in... 08:06 Yeah, he was death-- In Medina, wasn't it? 08:09 In his home town was came into contact 08:12 with both Jews and Christians 08:15 which at that time were, you know, 08:18 the prevailing church was the Roman Catholic Church. 08:21 And Islam ends up being a mix of that. 08:22 Right. 08:23 And I think even if you don't get into, you know, 08:27 who inspired, you know, 08:28 what divine source there was for any of this. 08:31 it's just obvious the influences were at work, 08:33 but there's zero historical track 08:36 that this was manipulated or you know a flying wedge 08:42 on behalf of the Christian church, 08:44 it has nothing to do with it in that sense. 08:46 But once it got some traction, there clearly was a reaction 08:52 to what they saw with the people of the book, 08:54 Christians with pagan images and pagan practices 09:00 and there was actually even a-- 09:04 How can I characterize it? 09:05 A real animist toward the priesthood. 09:10 So-- Yeah. 09:12 And were later talking about splitting their skulls? 09:14 Absolutely. 09:15 And when they went up into Europe 09:18 they were given directions to spare 09:19 the people of the book, 09:20 but anyone with the tonsure to kill without mercy. 09:23 So it just flies in the face of this crazy sort of idea 09:27 that there was some sort of hidden 09:29 front Christian church. 09:30 But there is common ground in the history 09:33 of the Malu that it comes out of it. 09:35 Oh, yes. 09:36 And so you're gonna find a lot of common ground. 09:39 But that doesn't prove that one is forming the other, 09:42 it's just they came out of the same mix. 09:44 But from the beginning there's been a lot of contact 09:47 between Islam and Christianity and a lot of it unpleasant. 09:51 And of course the reaction of Christianity 09:54 in the crusades was often violent. 09:56 So it's not just a one sided conflict. 09:58 Actually in my seminars, night one of my seminars 10:02 I make it really clear that many Christians 10:05 and many Muslims are serving 10:06 the same God of force, fear and anger, 10:09 do it our way or else and this is where, 10:11 our whole religious liberty area comes into it. 10:13 Absolutely. 10:14 There are also some Christians and some Muslims 10:17 who have found or in search of the same true God 10:21 of love, truth, peace and forgiveness. 10:23 And so, you know, I can take a look 10:25 at George Barna's research of Christianity. 10:27 Based on his research a few years ago 10:29 only five out of a 100 Christians 10:31 are born again with a Biblical world view, 10:34 which means 95% really aren't real Christians. 10:38 So you've always had this group 10:41 that doesn't have a real relationship, 10:43 it can't give other people the freedom, 10:45 they have a relationship 10:46 and they try to force their view point. 10:48 Islam would be the very same. 10:50 Well, you and I before this program spoke 10:53 a bit about it and the way I... 10:56 described that is to say 10:57 that there's too much religion in the world. 10:59 Religion or a religious affiliation 11:02 without an emotional buy in, 11:07 and spiritual connection can be quite dangerous 11:09 and it almost always reverts to what you're saying 11:12 is sort of a legalistic over application 11:15 or the letter of the law 11:17 without the spirit can be pretty harsh. 11:20 Yes. 11:22 Well, you just take a look at papal led Christianity 11:25 which was in Daniel 11, it's north and south. 11:29 The Northern part of the Roman Empire 11:31 splits Christians, the southern part Islamic 11:33 and Jerusalem gets caught in the middle. 11:35 It was the same in the Greeks, but before the time of Jesus. 11:37 Now you're throwing in a term 11:38 that perhaps a lot of our viewers know, 11:40 but you better give us some contacts, papal. 11:42 What do you mean by that? 11:45 The leadership or government of the Roman Catholic Church. 11:49 They are very different from the people. 11:52 I tell people all the time 11:54 that I'm expecting more Roman Catholic people 11:56 in heaven than from any other denomination on earth, 11:59 that's because there's been more of them 12:00 for a lot more years. 12:02 And so, yeah, I'm expecting that in heaven 12:06 my neighborhood is gonna have more former Catholics 12:09 than anything else. 12:10 There's gonna be some former Baptists, former Adventists, 12:12 former lots of things there, notice they are all formers. 12:15 They will finally gonna just be God's kids 12:18 and they're not gonna be feuding 12:19 with each other anymore. 12:20 But I'm sure many of our viewers know, 12:23 but we need to qualify. 12:24 That's a very accurate description 12:26 of the church leadership 12:28 through this period, it was the papal Rome. 12:31 But there's a huge amount of history that led up 12:34 to the papacy taking, you know, 12:38 the lead role in the general Christian community and it's-- 12:42 Yes. 12:43 That the root of what Protestants 12:44 came to argue about, right? 12:46 A matter of legitimacy, not history, 12:48 the history is very plain. 12:50 That the Roman Catholic Church for a long period of time, 12:54 most of this so called Dark Ages, 12:57 that wasn't necessarily only dark 12:59 because of the Christian environment. 13:02 But the Dark Ages, 13:05 Rome almost the only game in town in Europe. 13:08 During that time period of Ottoman Islamic empire with... 13:14 You have verses 29 to 39 of Daniel 11, 13:18 second conflict between north and south. 13:20 It focuses on the actions of the King of the north 13:23 about killing by the sword 13:24 and by flame during those years. 13:27 Papal led Christianity was killing others Christians 13:31 by sword and burning them at the stake 13:33 for disagreeing theologically. 13:37 I mean in this prophecy actually even hits 13:39 the type of death by burning, 13:42 that was going on during that time. 13:44 And the reason they were being burnt 13:47 or put back to this death by sword, 13:49 was because they were doing great exploits for God 13:52 according to the text. 13:55 So obviously you have done a lot of-- 14:00 And you're doing a lot of study in the Bible. 14:02 Have you read the Quran? 14:05 You already know that answer. 14:06 I have read parts of it. 14:07 Well, I'm leading you into that. 14:08 I've read parts of it. 14:09 I need to read the whole thing, 14:10 but my conclusions have come from history and scripture. 14:15 That I have strong view 14:16 that the people need to read their Bibles very carefully 14:20 when you read them, not just hear 14:22 what preachers are saying. 14:23 Amen. I agree with that. 14:24 And in dealing with other faiths, 14:27 I don't think we have to know the holy books inside out, 14:30 but we should have some passing knowledge with it and... 14:35 What recently that came to my mind like, 14:37 you were talking about the type of God 14:40 that Christians can easily workshop 14:42 and there are many Muslims seemed to be following it 14:44 harsh exerting in that. 14:45 But it's interesting in the Quran 14:47 because every other sentence almost 14:50 is "Allah is all merciful, all gracious." 14:53 And that can be a little deceptive in the Quran 14:55 I think because I remember there's one section there, 14:59 where it talks about dealing with the infidel 15:01 or the apostate and how he has to be eviscerated 15:03 and you know, it goes into quite graphic detail 15:06 about how you kill them and butcher them. 15:09 But then it says, 15:10 because Allah is all merciful so, 15:13 you know, you got to be a bit careful 15:15 that we don't sort of sanctify horrible things 15:18 with "Our God is great." 15:20 He's not great if he calls you to do bad things 15:23 or if you equate him with these evil deeds. 15:27 There is an-- 15:28 To me an unfortunate trend in the Quran. 15:31 And that is, early on it is kinder, 15:38 later on it's more harsh. 15:39 Unfortunately they also believe 15:43 that the later ones trump their earlier statements 15:45 whenever there's a disagreement. 15:48 And so you have this tendency heading towards... 15:57 more radical view points. 15:59 Yeah. 16:00 Well-- You know it's-- 16:01 I don't know how to answer you on that 16:02 because just like many similar things in Christianity, 16:06 there are disputes among Islamic scholars on that. 16:08 Oh, I realized. 16:10 The better thing to understand is that the story of Islam, 16:16 as Muhammad told, it was the Angel Gabriel 16:19 had dictated these things to him, 16:21 beginning in a cave, 16:23 curiously he himself thought 16:25 it was a jinn or an evil spirit, 16:26 but his wife says, this is the angel and so, 16:30 since this was dictated directly from the angel, 16:33 they don't normally accept that a later comment 16:36 by the angel wipes an early one. 16:39 This is all, you know, 16:41 straight from heaven and the language of heaven 16:43 which curiously happens to be Arabic, 16:45 where I thought it was English to be honest. 16:48 But you know... 16:50 I'll hold my judgment till I get there. 16:52 But, but, you know I'm laughing about it 16:54 but that's one reason 16:56 and it's a legitimate one from their point of view 16:59 where a lot of Muslims won't even discuss 17:01 the Quran deeply with you 17:02 if you don't know Arabic because the language itself 17:06 is tied to the very intent of heaven. 17:11 But, yeah, we know that the, 17:14 maybe a better way of putting it. 17:15 We know that Islam went through different phases 17:19 which correspond to the antagonisms 17:21 and the advancement and the developing warfare 17:26 that characterize the expansion of Islam. 17:28 And so yes there was a shifting modus operand?, 17:33 but they don't normally accept that, you know, 17:36 what they once believed is now superseded by it. 17:39 No. Many of them do. 17:40 A few, but they are not given much credence I think. 17:45 Interestingly in the prophecy 17:48 that both the king of the north and the king of the south 17:52 and the break up of Roman Empire 17:54 will lead real armies into murderous conflict 17:57 and it will be deceptive. 17:59 Neither one is given... 18:02 a really shining recommendation. 18:07 They are both pointed out to be problematic. 18:10 And when you take a look at the history of both, 18:13 the majority of the followers have been problematic. 18:16 And you know the history is really clear. 18:19 Well, we need to share a lot of history on this program. 18:22 Let's take a break and we'll be back to continue 18:24 this interesting discussion of history, theology 18:27 and the clash of regions. |
Revised 2015-06-25