Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
bringing you news,
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views, discussion and
up-to-date information
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on religious liberty
developments in the U.S.
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Tim Roosenberg
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and I could
categorize you as author
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and widely traveled
lecturer on a particular topic.
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And that's what I want
to talk with you today, Tim.
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I've got your book here
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and it's "Islam
and Christianity."
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"In prophecy."
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"In prophecy."
Yes, but it was small.
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But I was about to say,
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I think anybody would sort
of spark to that combination
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because with the terrorists
threat today it's predominantly
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from the Islamic side
and sometimes it's seen as,
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you know, the
crusades all over again
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and the antagonisms of the past,
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they are coming up to haunt us.
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And so I think we need to know
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what was behind this dynamic.
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It actually is a repeat of
what's going on in the past.
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Yeah.
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I'm forgetting there was a
famous statement, you know.
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Of course the cliché
history repeats itself.
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But someone said,
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it's very difficult to
predict especially the future.
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But the patterns of
human behaviors do repeat,
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don't they?
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We are in a
third round of repeat.
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Right.
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And when you
have religious models
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of course that lays
out the thinking pattern
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and sometimes the agenda
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for people of a
particular faith.
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Not only it's a
third round of repeat.
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My understanding of Bible
prophecy is, in Daniel 11,
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we're on the third round of
the conflict predicted there
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and it's been
accurate for 2500 years.
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Well, just tell me
briefly what are the three,
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the three rounds, the first one?
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I'm coming from Daniel
11 and the first round is--
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This is Daniel 11 in the Bible.
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Daniel 11 in the Bible.
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The first round
is Daniel 11:25-28
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which is the
conflict of the crusades
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when the European Nations
vowed people at Christianity
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because they were
afraid of the spread of Islam.
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The second
conflict, the verses 29 to 39,
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when the
Christian nations of Europe
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again organized
behind papal led Christianity
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because they were
afraid of the spread of Islam
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and the Ottoman Islamic Empire,
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the second
Caliphate if you would.
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And the third and final
one is in the time of the end
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and it's the same two
players again in Daniel 11.
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So it will be the third
round and this one is the third
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and final conflict
between those two powers.
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It's an interesting Biblical
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take on the secular
history of the conflict
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between nations and the rise of,
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really two
religions, Christianity--
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Lot of people don't realize it,
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but by the time Islam began
and it was a small beginnings
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for a while around
610 I think it was.
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Christianity was 600 years old.
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Yes.
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Was an old religion?
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So repetitively speaking
Islam is the new, new religion
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which challenged Christianity.
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By the way you can get
those same three conflicts
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not quite as clearly,
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but in Revelation
called the three vows.
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It's a good point.
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And in the back of my book
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we have from
1100 through the 1930s
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about 60
different Bible commentators
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who saw that in Revelation.
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Let's go back apart
from the three cycles,
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you circle, what led
you to get into this topic
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because you do
travel pretty widely
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and lecture on this?
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I've even heard your lecture
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which is very good and
quite long, complicated.
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So you're giving these seminars
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all over North
America predominantly.
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Predominantly
North America, but--
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Yeah, but some further a field.
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Yes.
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Got in the Africa
and Australia last year.
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And by the way,
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we were in north
eastern Nigeria last year,
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Boko Haram
territory, that was interesting.
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Front line.
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But anyway.
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You were asking again--
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How you got into this?
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Yes.
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What sparked you?
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When I became a
Christian in my late teens,
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I fell in love with Jesus.
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And to me Bible prophecy
was all about meeting Jesus.
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Some people get
in the Bible prophecy
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and there are all those
horrible things and everything.
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To me it's--
Jesus is coming again
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and I'm looking
forward to meeting Jesus.
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Right.
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That's the best way to see this.
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It was, you know,
otherwise people just focus
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on all of the images
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of destruction
and apocalyptic end,
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it sort of fearful, you
know, as the Bible itself says,
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you know, a fear for
what's coming upon the world,
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we shouldn't be like that.
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But yeah, we shouldn't.
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Jesus said, "Let not
your heart be troubled."
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When you're
looking at all the stuff.
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Why?
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Because He's coming
to rescue His people.
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And so that's what I try
to get across in my seminars.
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But as I was always
loving history and prophecy
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and so over the years
I do prophecy seminars
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and stuff while I was pastoring.
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And I've gone on
an online disagreement
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with somebody back
around the year 2000
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about the role of Islam.
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It's after 9/11, huh?
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Just before.
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Oh, just sorry, yes.
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9/11 was 2001,
September 11 of course.
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Yeah.
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And, so what happens is,
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I'm taking look at this material
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and I'm arguing
mostly in my head
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not so much in the online.
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This person saw Islam
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and papal led
Christianity uniting together
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and becoming one
power fulfilling what would,
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they were looking
at Revelation 13:3,
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and all the world follows.
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And so they are
looking at this unity
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and I'm looking at
that, I'm thinking,
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oh, come on,
they are like polar,
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opposites like north and south.
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And as that's
going through my mind
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it's like the Holy
Spirit slaps me and to guess,
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Daniel 11 that chapter you
don't understand very well?
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Look at it again.
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I opened it up with that
north, south comment in my mind.
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All of a sudden the
history of all the way through
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from the time of
Christ till today was right
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in front of me and I
could see it in today's world.
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Well, let me
throw you to the lions.
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Oh, go for it.
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Of an idea, it's
not what you'd expect.
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I want to lay to rest one idea
that I've heard put forward.
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I know where it comes from
but people are repeating it
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when I travel around
talking on this topic.
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Someone has given them the idea
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that Islam was begun
as basically an experiment
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by the Roman Catholic Church
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to clear the way
against other religions.
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Okay. Right.
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Did you have
historical basis of that?
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I have heard that
story so many times.
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Let me just 'cause no
matter what I say on this one,
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somebody is gonna be
irritated with me on this one.
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What did you say about
throwing me to the lions.
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So here we go.
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Bottom-line is it doesn't
much matter which way it was.
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It is from the politics.
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No.
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Because the result is the
same, you still have a conflict.
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All right.
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That's said, I'll
still answer your question.
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That's said, I'll
still answer your question.
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And that is,
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I don't think the
papacy started Mohammed.
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Based on the prophecy it
is reaction in Revelation
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against the
images that were brought
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into the Christian churches.
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Now you're getting into history.
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This is
historically easily approvable.
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Muhammad in...
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Yeah, he was death--
In Medina, wasn't it?
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In his home town
was came into contact
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with both Jews and Christians
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which at that
time were, you know,
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the prevailing church was
the Roman Catholic Church.
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And Islam ends up
being a mix of that.
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Right.
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And I think even if you
don't get into, you know,
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who inspired, you know,
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what divine source
there was for any of this.
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it's just obvious the
influences were at work,
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but there's
zero historical track
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that this was manipulated
or you know a flying wedge
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on behalf of the
Christian church,
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it has nothing to do
with it in that sense.
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But once it got some traction,
there clearly was a reaction
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to what they saw with
the people of the book,
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Christians with pagan
images and pagan practices
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and there was actually even a--
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How can I characterize it?
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A real animist
toward the priesthood.
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So-- Yeah.
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And were later talking
about splitting their skulls?
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Absolutely.
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And when they
went up into Europe
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they were given
directions to spare
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the people of the book,
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but anyone with the
tonsure to kill without mercy.
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So it just flies in the
face of this crazy sort of idea
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that there was
some sort of hidden
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front Christian church.
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But there is common
ground in the history
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of the Malu that
it comes out of it.
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Oh, yes.
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And so you're gonna
find a lot of common ground.
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But that doesn't prove
that one is forming the other,
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it's just they came
out of the same mix.
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But from the beginning
there's been a lot of contact
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between Islam and Christianity
and a lot of it unpleasant.
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And of course the
reaction of Christianity
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in the crusades
was often violent.
00:09:54.15\00:09:56.09
So it's not just a
one sided conflict.
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Actually in my seminars,
night one of my seminars
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I make it really
clear that many Christians
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and many Muslims are serving
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the same God of
force, fear and anger,
00:10:06.85\00:10:09.25
do it our way or
else and this is where,
00:10:09.28\00:10:11.38
our whole religious
liberty area comes into it.
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Absolutely.
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There are also some
Christians and some Muslims
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who have found or in
search of the same true God
00:10:17.80\00:10:21.14
of love, truth,
peace and forgiveness.
00:10:21.17\00:10:23.73
And so, you
know, I can take a look
00:10:23.76\00:10:25.62
at George Barna's
research of Christianity.
00:10:25.65\00:10:27.80
Based on his
research a few years ago
00:10:27.83\00:10:29.82
only five out
of a 100 Christians
00:10:29.85\00:10:31.76
are born again with
a Biblical world view,
00:10:31.79\00:10:34.42
which means 95% really
aren't real Christians.
00:10:34.45\00:10:38.00
So you've always had this group
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that doesn't have
a real relationship,
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it can't give
other people the freedom,
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they have a relationship
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and they try to
force their view point.
00:10:46.53\00:10:48.14
Islam would be the very same.
00:10:48.17\00:10:50.33
Well, you and I
before this program spoke
00:10:50.36\00:10:53.06
a bit about it and the way I...
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described that is to say
00:10:56.13\00:10:57.45
that there's too much
religion in the world.
00:10:57.48\00:10:59.68
Religion or a
religious affiliation
00:10:59.71\00:11:02.87
without an emotional buy in,
00:11:02.90\00:11:07.37
and spiritual connection
can be quite dangerous
00:11:07.40\00:11:09.95
and it almost always
reverts to what you're saying
00:11:09.98\00:11:12.75
is sort of a
legalistic over application
00:11:12.78\00:11:15.58
or the letter of the law
00:11:15.61\00:11:17.53
without the spirit
can be pretty harsh.
00:11:17.56\00:11:20.00
Yes.
00:11:20.03\00:11:22.66
Well, you just take a
look at papal led Christianity
00:11:22.69\00:11:25.94
which was in Daniel
11, it's north and south.
00:11:25.97\00:11:29.62
The Northern part
of the Roman Empire
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splits Christians,
the southern part Islamic
00:11:31.54\00:11:33.79
and Jerusalem gets
caught in the middle.
00:11:33.82\00:11:35.19
It was the same in the Greeks,
but before the time of Jesus.
00:11:35.22\00:11:37.33
Now you're throwing in a term
00:11:37.36\00:11:38.84
that perhaps a lot
of our viewers know,
00:11:38.87\00:11:40.29
but you better give
us some contacts, papal.
00:11:40.32\00:11:42.92
What do you mean by that?
00:11:42.95\00:11:45.21
The leadership or government
of the Roman Catholic Church.
00:11:45.24\00:11:49.31
They are very
different from the people.
00:11:49.34\00:11:52.57
I tell people all the time
00:11:52.60\00:11:54.45
that I'm expecting
more Roman Catholic people
00:11:54.48\00:11:56.42
in heaven than from any
other denomination on earth,
00:11:56.45\00:11:59.52
that's because
there's been more of them
00:11:59.55\00:12:00.95
for a lot more years.
00:12:00.98\00:12:02.57
And so, yeah, I'm
expecting that in heaven
00:12:02.60\00:12:06.44
my neighborhood is gonna
have more former Catholics
00:12:06.47\00:12:09.20
than anything else.
00:12:09.23\00:12:10.26
There's gonna be some former
Baptists, former Adventists,
00:12:10.29\00:12:12.11
former lots of things there,
notice they are all formers.
00:12:12.14\00:12:15.73
They will finally
gonna just be God's kids
00:12:15.76\00:12:18.04
and they're not gonna be feuding
00:12:18.07\00:12:19.17
with each other anymore.
00:12:19.20\00:12:20.58
But I'm sure many
of our viewers know,
00:12:20.61\00:12:23.27
but we need to qualify.
00:12:23.30\00:12:24.64
That's a very
accurate description
00:12:24.67\00:12:26.93
of the church leadership
00:12:26.96\00:12:28.56
through this period,
it was the papal Rome.
00:12:28.59\00:12:31.73
But there's a huge
amount of history that led up
00:12:31.76\00:12:34.91
to the papacy taking, you know,
00:12:34.94\00:12:38.70
the lead role in the general
Christian community and it's--
00:12:38.73\00:12:42.22
Yes.
00:12:42.25\00:12:43.28
That the root
of what Protestants
00:12:43.31\00:12:44.39
came to argue about, right?
00:12:44.42\00:12:46.39
A matter of
legitimacy, not history,
00:12:46.42\00:12:48.94
the history is very plain.
00:12:48.97\00:12:50.49
That the Roman Catholic Church
for a long period of time,
00:12:50.52\00:12:54.56
most of this so
called Dark Ages,
00:12:54.59\00:12:57.23
that wasn't
necessarily only dark
00:12:57.26\00:12:59.19
because of the
Christian environment.
00:12:59.22\00:13:02.79
But the Dark Ages,
00:13:02.82\00:13:05.02
Rome almost the only
game in town in Europe.
00:13:05.05\00:13:08.78
During that time period of
Ottoman Islamic empire with...
00:13:08.81\00:13:14.90
You have verses 29
to 39 of Daniel 11,
00:13:14.93\00:13:18.28
second conflict
between north and south.
00:13:18.31\00:13:20.42
It focuses on the
actions of the King of the north
00:13:20.45\00:13:23.34
about killing by the sword
00:13:23.37\00:13:24.51
and by flame during those years.
00:13:24.54\00:13:27.34
Papal led Christianity
was killing others Christians
00:13:27.37\00:13:31.17
by sword and
burning them at the stake
00:13:31.20\00:13:33.81
for disagreeing theologically.
00:13:33.84\00:13:37.05
I mean in this
prophecy actually even hits
00:13:37.08\00:13:39.62
the type of death by burning,
00:13:39.65\00:13:42.94
that was going
on during that time.
00:13:42.97\00:13:44.82
And the reason
they were being burnt
00:13:44.85\00:13:47.25
or put back to
this death by sword,
00:13:47.28\00:13:49.87
was because they were
doing great exploits for God
00:13:49.90\00:13:52.83
according to the text.
00:13:52.86\00:13:55.69
So obviously you
have done a lot of--
00:13:55.72\00:14:00.02
And you're doing a
lot of study in the Bible.
00:14:00.05\00:14:02.71
Have you read the Quran?
00:14:02.74\00:14:05.48
You already know that answer.
00:14:05.51\00:14:06.56
I have read parts of it.
00:14:06.59\00:14:07.63
Well, I'm leading you into that.
00:14:07.66\00:14:08.69
I've read parts of it.
00:14:08.72\00:14:09.78
I need to read the whole thing,
00:14:09.81\00:14:10.84
but my conclusions have
come from history and scripture.
00:14:10.87\00:14:15.88
That I have strong view
00:14:15.91\00:14:16.94
that the people need to
read their Bibles very carefully
00:14:16.97\00:14:20.28
when you read
them, not just hear
00:14:20.31\00:14:22.55
what preachers are saying.
00:14:22.58\00:14:23.61
Amen. I agree with that.
00:14:23.64\00:14:24.67
And in dealing
with other faiths,
00:14:24.70\00:14:27.48
I don't think we have to
know the holy books inside out,
00:14:27.51\00:14:30.77
but we should have some
passing knowledge with it and...
00:14:30.80\00:14:35.35
What recently that
came to my mind like,
00:14:35.38\00:14:37.16
you were talking
about the type of God
00:14:37.19\00:14:40.32
that Christians
can easily workshop
00:14:40.35\00:14:42.61
and there are many Muslims
seemed to be following it
00:14:42.64\00:14:44.51
harsh exerting in that.
00:14:44.54\00:14:45.92
But it's
interesting in the Quran
00:14:45.95\00:14:47.09
because every
other sentence almost
00:14:47.12\00:14:50.00
is "Allah is all
merciful, all gracious."
00:14:50.03\00:14:53.01
And that can be a
little deceptive in the Quran
00:14:53.04\00:14:55.30
I think because I remember
there's one section there,
00:14:55.33\00:14:59.45
where it talks about
dealing with the infidel
00:14:59.48\00:15:01.31
or the apostate and how
he has to be eviscerated
00:15:01.34\00:15:03.62
and you know, it goes
into quite graphic detail
00:15:03.65\00:15:06.16
about how you kill
them and butcher them.
00:15:06.19\00:15:09.41
But then it says,
00:15:09.44\00:15:10.48
because Allah
is all merciful so,
00:15:10.51\00:15:13.83
you know, you got
to be a bit careful
00:15:13.86\00:15:15.71
that we don't sort of
sanctify horrible things
00:15:15.74\00:15:18.44
with "Our God is great."
00:15:18.47\00:15:20.36
He's not great if he
calls you to do bad things
00:15:20.39\00:15:23.09
or if you equate him
with these evil deeds.
00:15:23.12\00:15:27.24
There is an--
00:15:27.27\00:15:28.34
To me an
unfortunate trend in the Quran.
00:15:28.37\00:15:31.95
And that is,
early on it is kinder,
00:15:31.98\00:15:38.11
later on it's more harsh.
00:15:38.14\00:15:39.68
Unfortunately they also believe
00:15:39.71\00:15:43.04
that the later ones
trump their earlier statements
00:15:43.07\00:15:45.32
whenever there's a disagreement.
00:15:45.35\00:15:48.92
And so you have this
tendency heading towards...
00:15:48.95\00:15:54.18
more radical view points.
00:15:57.43\00:15:59.00
Yeah.
00:15:59.03\00:16:00.14
Well-- You know it's--
00:16:00.17\00:16:01.20
I don't know how
to answer you on that
00:16:01.23\00:16:02.95
because just like many
similar things in Christianity,
00:16:02.98\00:16:06.23
there are disputes among
Islamic scholars on that.
00:16:06.26\00:16:08.83
Oh, I realized.
00:16:08.86\00:16:10.22
The better thing to understand
is that the story of Islam,
00:16:10.25\00:16:16.23
as Muhammad told, it
was the Angel Gabriel
00:16:16.26\00:16:19.61
had dictated
these things to him,
00:16:19.64\00:16:21.50
beginning in a cave,
00:16:21.53\00:16:23.75
curiously he himself thought
00:16:23.78\00:16:25.04
it was a jinn or an evil spirit,
00:16:25.07\00:16:26.44
but his wife says,
this is the angel and so,
00:16:26.47\00:16:30.59
since this was dictated
directly from the angel,
00:16:30.62\00:16:33.86
they don't normally
accept that a later comment
00:16:33.89\00:16:36.49
by the angel wipes an early one.
00:16:36.52\00:16:38.99
This is all, you know,
00:16:39.02\00:16:41.63
straight from heaven
and the language of heaven
00:16:41.66\00:16:43.71
which curiously
happens to be Arabic,
00:16:43.74\00:16:45.66
where I thought it
was English to be honest.
00:16:45.69\00:16:48.88
But you know...
00:16:48.91\00:16:50.01
I'll hold my
judgment till I get there.
00:16:50.04\00:16:52.81
But, but, you know
I'm laughing about it
00:16:52.84\00:16:54.73
but that's one reason
00:16:54.76\00:16:56.41
and it's a legitimate
one from their point of view
00:16:56.44\00:16:59.14
where a lot of
Muslims won't even discuss
00:16:59.17\00:17:01.66
the Quran deeply with you
00:17:01.69\00:17:02.93
if you don't know Arabic
because the language itself
00:17:02.96\00:17:06.69
is tied to the
very intent of heaven.
00:17:06.72\00:17:11.17
But, yeah, we know that the,
00:17:11.20\00:17:14.36
maybe a better
way of putting it.
00:17:14.39\00:17:15.43
We know that Islam went
through different phases
00:17:15.46\00:17:19.46
which correspond
to the antagonisms
00:17:19.49\00:17:21.55
and the advancement
and the developing warfare
00:17:21.58\00:17:26.09
that characterize
the expansion of Islam.
00:17:26.12\00:17:28.26
And so yes there was a
shifting modus operand?,
00:17:28.29\00:17:33.24
but they don't
normally accept that, you know,
00:17:33.27\00:17:36.78
what they once believed
is now superseded by it.
00:17:36.81\00:17:39.51
No. Many of them do.
00:17:39.54\00:17:40.62
A few, but they are not
given much credence I think.
00:17:40.65\00:17:45.77
Interestingly in the prophecy
00:17:45.80\00:17:48.73
that both the king of the
north and the king of the south
00:17:48.76\00:17:52.22
and the break up of Roman Empire
00:17:52.25\00:17:54.28
will lead real armies
into murderous conflict
00:17:54.31\00:17:57.92
and it will be deceptive.
00:17:57.95\00:17:59.68
Neither one is given...
00:17:59.71\00:18:02.89
a really shining recommendation.
00:18:02.92\00:18:06.98
They are both pointed
out to be problematic.
00:18:07.01\00:18:10.20
And when you take a
look at the history of both,
00:18:10.23\00:18:13.10
the majority of the
followers have been problematic.
00:18:13.13\00:18:16.96
And you know the
history is really clear.
00:18:16.99\00:18:19.07
Well, we need to share a
lot of history on this program.
00:18:19.10\00:18:22.34
Let's take a break and
we'll be back to continue
00:18:22.37\00:18:24.93
this interesting
discussion of history, theology
00:18:24.96\00:18:27.78
and the clash of regions.
00:18:27.81\00:18:30.48