Welcome back to
the "Liberty Insider."
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Before the break my guest
was reading from James Madison,
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talking about the Bill of Rights
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and particularly
about the presidency.
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Yes, James
Madison was talking about
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basically the need
for Bill of Rights.
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And that was a
big debate back then
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whether it was
either need or not.
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And he goes on to say
that the weakest department
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is the executive department.
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In fact Hamilton actually
wrote in the Federalist Papers
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that the Supreme Court was
actually the weakest branch,
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and some would
debate that today.
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But clearly all they
can do is interpret the law
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and do nothing more.
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So to say that they are
the most powerful branch
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is again skewing the truth.
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Anyway, Madison he goes on,
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he said "The
greatest danger lies
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in the abuse of the
people or the community
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than in the legislative body.
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The prescriptions
in favor of liberty
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ought to be leveled
against that quarter
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where the greatest danger lies,
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namely, that which possesses
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the highest
prerogative of power.
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But this is not found
in either the executive
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or legislative
departments of government."
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Did you get that?
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"But in the body of the people,
operating by the majority,"
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by the majority,
"against the minority."
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In other words the fickle masses
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were the greatest threat
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to the downfall
of our constituency.
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And Madison and most of
his peers feared the majority.
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And he goes in to talk about--
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They were not majoritarian.
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He goes in to talk about
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the political
science of the constitution,
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which he said,
actually the constitution
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by the people
sending their representatives
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was meant to corral
the public into sensibility
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and to sensible directions.
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Otherwise they
would be directionless
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and we'll be having
forever anarchy and chaos.
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In many ways they were
elitist in their thinking.
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They were but, you know,
they were right ultimately.
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Well, it made for a
more stable situation
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because remember
they were observing
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in quick order the
French Revolution, so...
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In fact,
Madison did not believe,
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at least in his
time, that law making
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or even
presidential executive orders
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or presidential elections
or congressional elections
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would be by putting
their finger in the air,
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and whichever way the wind blow
politically they would move.
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In fact, Democratic Republic,
the way the founders envisioned
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it was that the people would
elect their representatives
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to do what they thought
was the best thing, okay.
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So not relying on
public opinion polls
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but doing what they
thought was the best thing.
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And if they trusted that person
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in terms of their
personal convictions and morals
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and went to
Congress or was elected
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as president that they would--
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they may not always--
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That would then
relegate certain authorities.
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They may not always
agree with their decisions,
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but they would
give them that respect
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and due honor afforded to them
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because after
all, they elected them.
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Now if they didn't like them,
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you know, vote the
idiot out who was--
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You remember the years
of Madison's presidency?
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Yes.
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It had to have been around 1812.
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Yes, 1812 war,
yes, with Britain.
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But what was
happening at the same time?
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This was Napoleon on
the rampage in Europe.
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Yes.
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We forget, at least I think,
I studied history in America.
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We see it in isolation.
We forget the global context.
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Right.
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And this was as the
country was formulating
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its governing model
and what it had to look at
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and Jefferson
curiously was in favor,
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but it went out of control.
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Yes. You had the--
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you know, the little corporal
tramping all over Europe,
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an army of despotism
against other countries.
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Well, what happened--
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They saw a revolution gone awry
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and here they
wanted to shape this one
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into a
responsible stable country.
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Just shortly
thereafter what did you have?
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You had
Napoleon sending Berthier
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to go arrest the
Pope, Pope Pius VI.
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Right.
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And forever
demonstrating that the church
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will no longer
control the state.
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They were actually
behind in terms of--
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yes, they produced
the Declaration of Rights
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in France which has, you know,
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led to the
human rights standards
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that we have in--
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Well, the current
Napoleon still rules in France.
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Yes.
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So there were some good
things that came out of it.
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Right, but when you look at--
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But it was
secularism that ran amok
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and restricted the ancient power
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of the Roman Catholic Church
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and has a prophetic
meaning as you and I know.
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Oh, yes.
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When you look at
the Bill of Rights,
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they are not
the end all, be all.
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Let me explain it to
you. No, I agree with you.
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Justice Antonin
Scalia, abut the only thing
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I've ever really cared for him
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in terms of his opinion
came in a ruling involving
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whether "under God"
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should be removed from
the pledge of allegiance.
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Michael Newdow, both an attorney
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and a physician
came to argue his case
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before the US Supreme Court.
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A radical secular.
And an atheist, yes.
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And he came
forward and basically said
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that "under God"
should remove from the--
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be removed from
the constitution.
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And several of the justices
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objected to that
in their questions,
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hypothetical scenarios
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and their
questions to him and so on,
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including the liberals who
just thought that went too far.
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And in fact they
dismissed the case out of hand
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because they said
that Michael Newdow
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had brought the
case fraudulently to them
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because the facts of
the case weren't true,
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that his daughter
actually had no problem
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citing the pledge of
allegiance with "under God"
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in it back at her school.
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Because she was a Christian
so had no problem with that.
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There was a matter of
custody, too, whether--
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Yes, so they remanded it back
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to the California
state Supreme Court.
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Well, the bottom line is,
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in that case Justice
Scalia and the other justices
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basically took him apart.
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Justice Scalia
said, wait a minute--
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And Michael Newdow had said
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that atheists were
frozen out of Public Square.
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They didn't have
their rights represented
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and they wanted "under God"
removed from the constitution,
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so that atheists
would also be part
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of the American fabric
of people, not be excluded.
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And Justice Scalia
says, "Wait a minute,
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you represent less than
2% of the public, number one.
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Number two," he says,
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"we have to
balance majoritarian rights
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represented by 'we the
people,' the constitution itself
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and minority rights
based upon the Bill of Rights."
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And he says
when we weigh the two
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we have to determine
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what competing
interests are involved.
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In other words, we rightly
say that the Bill of Rights
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was intended to
protect minorities
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against the
abuse of the majority.
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But he said, we also,
if you counterbalance that,
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we also have to
protect the majority
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against those who
would use the Bill of Rights
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in an abusive way against
the will of the people, okay.
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So when you look at
the balance it shows
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that the constitutional
founders were geniuses.
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I mean, we think
about it, you know,
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thank goodness they
didn't have TV in that time.
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It seems to me
they could have used
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Madison's argument against
praying teachers of religion.
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Well, they--
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Because you could
make a good argument
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that the intent of this
secular construct of government
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was to keep it secular
and not cross that line,
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and in his case, pay
the salary or in this case
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use religious language.
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It's not really--
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it seems to me it
isn't narrowly between
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a majority-minority
religion and secular.
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It's whether it's being true
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to the established nature
of this Republican itself.
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Well, I'm just talking about
the general nature of how--
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But Scalia gets it
right a lot of the time.
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And he is
interesting to listen to.
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I'm just merely sharing with you
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how the founding
fathers arranged the ideal,
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the going back and forth
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between Bill of
Rights and the constitution.
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But something more
important especially
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in regard to the first amendment
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that says
Congress shall make no law
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respecting an
establishment of religion
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or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof.
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The origins of the
language of that really go back
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to the Virginia
Statute of Religious Freedom
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and how that came about.
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It was a bill put forward
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by Thomas Jefferson
in 1776 to counteract
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a financial provision
bill by Patrick Henry,
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who by the way, most people
know this about Patrick Henry.
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He opposed the
ratification of the constitution
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and he also
opposed the ratification
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of the Bill of Rights
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unless certain pieces
of language is in there.
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But he opposed specifically
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the Virginia
Statute of Religious Freedom
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that Thomas Jefferson
had put forward and said, no,
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we need to keep our
church establishments,
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we need to keep
the Anglican church
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as established church,
and but we can change it.
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We can call it
the equal rights bill
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that each
parishioner in any church
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can give to the
church and school the pastor
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and teacher of
their choice, okay.
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So-- The European model.
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Yes. Okay, you can give--
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For example
Germany has that model.
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And Madison said, no,
that means minority religions,
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like at that time
the Baptist religion,
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would be basically frozen out.
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That would lead to mob rule,
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that is, majority rule
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and the majority and
most powerful churches
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would not only
get the most money,
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but maybe get
exclusively all the money
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because it would create a mafia
like mentality of the people
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to pressure other people
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to give to certain denomination.
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And so they said,
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Thomas Jefferson
and Madison said,
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especially Madison,
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his memorial and
remonstrance says, no,
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we can't go down this road.
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Every religion
must be treated equal
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and guaranteed to be
equal under the constitution.
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And so therefore,
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the state should
not be in the business
00:10:01.13\00:10:03.07
of funding religion.
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It was a wonderful way
of coming at it, wasn't it?
00:10:04.71\00:10:07.60
And, of course, we are
reaping the benefits today.
00:10:07.63\00:10:09.88
Yes.
00:10:09.91\00:10:11.07
But, you know,
I sometimes think,
00:10:11.10\00:10:14.07
is there a difference between
00:10:14.10\00:10:15.90
saying a country
is a Christian nation
00:10:15.93\00:10:17.91
and having an
established church.
00:10:17.94\00:10:19.56
You can have an
established church
00:10:19.59\00:10:21.06
and still not call
it a Christian nation.
00:10:21.09\00:10:23.64
It seems to me this
Christian nation concept
00:10:23.67\00:10:26.00
is more dangerous,
00:10:26.03\00:10:27.41
because it gives rise
to American exceptionalism.
00:10:27.44\00:10:30.56
The idea that whatever you
do is automatically God's will.
00:10:30.59\00:10:33.73
And it could-- it
leads to military adventures.
00:10:33.76\00:10:38.30
It's just, it's
very, very dangerous.
00:10:38.33\00:10:41.25
So, you know, most
people sort of breeze over it.
00:10:41.28\00:10:45.50
American, you
know, Christian nation,
00:10:45.53\00:10:47.68
what difference does it matter.
00:10:47.71\00:10:48.85
A lot of things flow
from this, don't they?
00:10:48.88\00:10:50.67
We're a pluralistic
nation of many religions
00:10:50.70\00:10:53.51
who are treated
equally under the constitution.
00:10:53.54\00:10:55.46
And that's been the
genius of the United States.
00:10:55.49\00:10:57.57
And there is no other nation
that does that as thoroughly
00:10:57.60\00:11:00.43
and as well as
the United States.
00:11:00.46\00:11:03.12
And we hope that that continues.
00:11:03.15\00:11:05.02
Yes.
00:11:05.05\00:11:06.13
And really even in post 9/11
00:11:06.16\00:11:08.09
the US has been quite true
to that constitutional intent.
00:11:08.12\00:11:11.14
Hasn't it? Yes.
00:11:11.17\00:11:12.23
I mean, it's
paid good lip service.
00:11:12.26\00:11:13.32
Oh, absolutely.
00:11:13.35\00:11:14.46
And religious freedom
is America's first freedom.
00:11:14.49\00:11:17.27
And that's important to remember
00:11:17.30\00:11:18.43
because all the
rights flow from that.
00:11:18.46\00:11:20.28
Free speech,
freedom to assembly,
00:11:20.31\00:11:22.37
freedom of the press,
freedom to redress grievances,
00:11:22.40\00:11:26.15
et cetera, et cetera.
00:11:26.18\00:11:27.30
We live in a marvelous nation.
00:11:27.33\00:11:28.83
Let's not forget the price
00:11:28.86\00:11:30.81
that was paid to
give us religious freedom.
00:11:30.84\00:11:33.46
In the biblical
account of God's dealings
00:11:35.55\00:11:38.15
with the Old
Testament nation of Israel
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things began to go awry
with His rule over those people
00:11:40.65\00:11:44.78
when they demanded,
as they said, a king,
00:11:44.81\00:11:47.57
give us a king like
the rest of the nations.
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That was bad enough,
00:11:51.24\00:11:52.85
but that new kingly system
went totally off the rails
00:11:52.88\00:11:56.93
when King Saul
took it upon himself
00:11:56.96\00:11:59.97
to offer the priestly sacrifice.
00:12:00.00\00:12:02.82
There was a total
amalgam of church and state
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and it was unacceptable to God.
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And as the prophet said,
your kingdom is taken from you.
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I believe today in
modern America to define it
00:12:12.02\00:12:15.98
as a Christian nation
is to go the other way,
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moving from secular to
religious without authority,
00:12:19.30\00:12:23.78
without mandate and
with all of the risks
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that are
implicit in such a shift.
00:12:26.32\00:12:28.65
God will raise up a holy people,
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you and I have that
ability to respond individually.
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But He does not
lay out the scepter,
00:12:35.19\00:12:38.72
He does not put
the oil upon any nation
00:12:38.75\00:12:41.55
just because they say so.
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We need to keep that in mind
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when we speak
about a Christian nation
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and how it defines itself.
00:12:48.90\00:12:51.88
For "Liberty
Insider," I am Lincoln Steed.
00:12:51.91\00:12:55.75