Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Greg Hamilton
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000284A
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00:17 Welcome to "The Liberty Insider".
00:19 This is the program that brings you news, 00:21 views, discussion, opinion 00:23 and up to date information on religious liberty issue 00:26 in the United States and around the world. 00:28 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:32 and my guest is Greg Hamilton, a constitutional scholar, 00:36 holder of an advanced degree from Baylor University, 00:40 J. M. Dawson Institute of church-State Studies 00:44 and also the president of Northwest 00:45 Religious Liberty Association. 00:47 I'm glad to be with you. 00:48 And, Hamilton, that goes back to the beginning, right? 00:52 Got the bloodline back to the-- 00:55 Let's talk a little bit about the US constitution, 00:58 which is a unique and little known document. 01:00 Lot of discussion about it 01:02 but as you and I were talking earlier, 01:05 even the Congress, when they recited it, 01:06 it recently showed not a great familiarity 01:09 with some of it's more archian areas 01:13 but most Americans, I think, 01:16 or many Americans in their unguarded moments 01:19 let loose comments about America 01:21 being a Christian republic or a Christian nation 01:24 and that might be true on a certain limited level 01:27 but some of them write it very large, don't they? 01:29 Oh, yes. 01:30 What's at play when people are throwing 01:33 around terms like Christian nation? 01:35 Ignorance is really-- 01:36 Is it from the constitution? 01:37 No, not at all, in fact I was testifying 01:41 at the Montana Legislature, in regard to a so called, 01:47 State Religious Freedom Restoration Act 01:49 and one of the legislators on House Judiciary Committee, 01:54 a woman whose name I won't state 01:57 but I will also speak of the sponsor of the bill. 02:01 She said in a question to former Supreme Court, 02:04 Montana Supreme Court justice, James Nelson, 02:08 she says, "Wasn't our constitution 02:12 and our laws presupposed on the Bible, 02:15 the word of God and didn't the founders intend 02:18 that only Christians be elected to public offices 02:21 especially the presidency?" 02:23 And James Nelson, who I regard very highly, 02:26 I mean he's like a superstar in Montana in terms of knowledge. 02:31 He skipped past the question and tried to deal with more 02:36 of the importance of the Religious Freedom Act 02:38 and didn't actually answer the question. 02:39 I went up to her afterwards and I said that, 02:43 ma'am, article 6, section 3 of the constitution says, 02:46 no religious test shall be required for anybody 02:49 for public office either appointed 02:51 or running for public office 02:53 and I said the Founding Fathers, 02:54 actually if you go back to the original debates 02:57 in the first Congress of 1789, 03:01 made it very clear that that an atheist 03:06 and even a Muslim could become president. 03:08 So if somebody wants to accuse President Obama, 03:11 being a Muslim of which he is not-- 03:12 It is not a constitutional problem. 03:13 It's not a constitutional problem 03:15 but people want to make it out to be a constitutional problem 03:17 when it isn't, even though he's not a Muslim. 03:19 He's made it very clear. 03:21 He's a charismatic Pentecostal Christian, 03:24 raised in an atheistic home with his mother, 03:27 whose grandparents were strong Lutherans, in Hawaii, 03:34 and with two Muslim fathers. 03:35 His real father and also his stepfather, Mr. Lolo Soetoro-- 03:39 But you're right. 03:40 His grandparents are the most important-- 03:42 Yes, yeah, because they virtually raised him 03:45 after his mother's early death in Hawaii 03:48 and went to prominent private religious schools, 03:50 in fact, that's where he came up 03:52 with his Just War Theory, was at that level, that age. 03:56 While in high school, studying St. Thomas Aquinas 04:00 and St. Augustine's Just War Theories, 04:02 which is very interesting. 04:04 So what did she say with you-- 04:07 Well, she-- I said that we're not a Christian nation. 04:12 It's very evident from the very First Amendment itself, 04:16 when it says that Congress shall make no law, 04:18 no law respecting an establishment of religion 04:22 where the word "an" is for any establishment-- 04:24 No, is a pretty inclusive-- 04:26 And no is very clear-- Nothing. 04:28 And or prohibit the free exercise of religion, 04:31 which is a balancing thing. 04:32 The Free Exercise Clause basically prevents 04:35 a slippery slope towards godlessness, 04:37 okay, that is the government will remain neutral 04:41 and always allow religious people 04:43 and institutions and churches to be independent 04:47 for the government to not only remain neutral 04:49 but have nothing to do with their powers 04:52 or their institutions and their worship or whatever. 04:56 So why did they want chaplains to sit in the Congress? 04:59 Let me just finish here. 05:00 The Establishment Clause was to prevent the slippery slope 05:03 towards church control of the state. 05:06 In other words, church meddling with the state, 05:09 okay, and also for the state meddling with the church. 05:12 So the Establishment Clause, 05:14 known as the Constitutional Separation of church and state 05:16 was to prevent against that other slope 05:20 which is equally dangerous, 05:23 towards church's dominance of the state, 05:26 like in the days of the Puritans, 05:27 prior to the constitution founding. 05:29 So the Founding Fathers figured this out, 05:31 I mean the very wording in the First Amendment 05:34 shows the genius of the constitution founders. 05:37 The Free Exercise Clause and the Establishment Clause 05:40 serving as a check and balance of each other-- 05:41 And we know a lot of the debate they had. 05:43 I mean, they didn't just arrive out of thin air, 05:45 they discussed the role of religion 05:47 and it even extended to the simplest level. 05:50 I remember there was a program 05:51 recently on religious freedom pointed out, 05:53 when it was all over, Benjamin Franklin, 05:55 even wanted to have prayer in honor, 05:56 it wasn't appropriate even to have prayer over it. 05:59 So they were consciously secular 06:01 even though many of them had personal, religious viewpoints. 06:04 One thing that's seldom said, 06:06 I think you have opinions on it. 06:08 It seems to me, part of this also was a reaction 06:11 against the role of the Church of England, 06:13 in the War of Independence 06:15 and the activists' role of many of those ministers 06:18 who were seen as agents of the government. 06:21 Sure, absolutely. 06:24 The sponsor of the bill of the Montana's 06:27 Religious Freedom Restoration Act, 06:29 in his closing remarks when asked to make 06:31 his closing remarks in favor of his bill, 06:33 brought up his Bible 06:35 and pounded it on the desk twice 06:38 that our nation was meant to be a Christian nation by law 06:43 and I thought to myself, 06:44 oh, my, he just shot himself in the foot. 06:48 That sent the moderate Republicans scurrying 06:50 and that's why his bill was defeated 06:52 on the House floor by a vote of 50 to 50. 06:55 I'd like to think that my testimony had something to do 06:57 with that as well, even though we were semi-supportive, 06:59 they didn't adopt our amendment language. 07:02 So anyway, the point is that if we're-- 07:07 if the Founding Fathers, the constitution founders 07:09 intended our nation to be a Christian nation 07:11 or a theocracy, how is that any different than Muslims 07:18 ruling their countries in Middle Eastern countries 07:22 through Sharia law? 07:24 I just-- the irony is just, I mean, is amazing. 07:27 It occurs to me-- 07:30 I mean, what kind of blinders do they have on? 07:32 Do they think these things through or not? 07:33 No, they're blinded by their passion and emotion. 07:36 They're not grounded in reason. 07:39 Let me share something with you from-- 07:42 A little book, I have the copy as the same. 07:44 A little book called, The Bill of Rights, 07:46 with writings that formed this foundation. 07:48 It's basically, 07:50 many of the speeches of James Madison, 07:52 in the first Congress, in 1789, 07:54 in Federal Hall, in New York city, 07:56 people forget that the first Congress 07:57 was actually in New York city, 07:59 in fact, the first several until they finally 08:01 built the US Capitol in Washington, DC. 08:06 And there was even a president 08:07 before George Washington, wasn't there? 08:09 Yes, I forget his name though. I forget it too. 08:12 But he was president of the Confederacy, 08:16 the confederate states before it became-- 08:19 Well, there was a legal shift 08:21 but still, in a certain sense there was a president. 08:24 Right, there was. 08:27 But anyway, James Madison speaking 08:29 for the reason for Bill of Rights 08:30 and there's interesting history behind this because-- 08:32 And as you know, at one stage, 08:34 he wasn't keen on it, didn't think it was necessary. 08:36 Exactly, that's-- Yeah, it's exactly right. 08:38 Alexander Hamilton said, well, I mean, the-- 08:42 our rights were already enumerated in the constitution. 08:44 So we don't need a list of Bill of Rights 08:47 but Thomas Jefferson who is brilliant on this issue, 08:50 unlike Hamilton. 08:52 He was an ambassador to France at that time, 08:54 kept writing letters to Madison, 08:56 no, you keep going along with Jefferson, 08:58 I mean, with Hamilton's ideas and it's wrong. 09:01 We need an established Bill of Rights, in order that, 09:06 you know, that states can have some rights 09:10 and also to make sure that individuals, minorities, 09:14 instead of just an abusive majority 09:16 which leads to big government can have rights 09:19 and so he finally convinced Madison in his speech-- 09:22 As I remember, part of Madison's objection 09:24 was by spelling them out it would perhaps limit 09:27 because there might be elements of rights 09:29 that were not covered by this bill. 09:31 Correct, he thought that it be an ever expanding 09:34 list of rights which in fact, 09:37 when it comes to the amendments to the constitution, 09:39 we only had what 27 or something like that-- 09:43 29. 09:45 Yeah, so it's not that many after over 200 years-- 09:49 Sorry, 28. 09:51 And the basic Bill of Rights worked an amendment. 09:55 The first nine and then the tenth came along. 09:58 He says, he speaks here in the first Congress, 10:02 in 1789 in Federal Hall, New York city, 10:05 right, across street from Wall Street, today. 10:07 "In our government, it is perhaps 10:09 less necessary to guard against the abuse 10:11 in the executive department than any other." 10:13 Now some people might laugh at that and say well, 10:15 okay, the presidency has become a virtual dictatorship-- 10:18 The imperial presidency-- 10:20 Through executive orders 10:21 and I always send this email out from UCLA, law school 10:26 and they show all the different executive orders from-- 10:30 in history from George Washington, 10:32 all down to Obama 10:34 and President Obama has something like 10:37 a little over 200 words, 10:39 Bill Clinton had like over 1,000 10:40 and Ronald Reagan, had something like 1,500 10:44 and George Bush has something like 490 or 500 10:49 and, you know, so I always remind people that, you know, 10:51 if you're going to do some comparison, 10:53 do your homework, you know-- 10:54 I do personally think that's a weak element of presidency. 10:59 It's a fairly unregulated element. 11:02 Well, it shows the failure both of Congress 11:04 and the presidency to get along. 11:06 Number one and number two, and mind you, 11:09 a lot of the executive orders by president 11:11 are signed the very first day of his office 11:13 after he's been elected and after his inauguration 11:18 and then just before he sits down the lunch 11:20 at the inauguration ball, 11:22 he signs a number of executive orders. 11:23 Basically, carrying forward into law 11:27 what was already there to carry forward 11:29 and extend previous executive orders. 11:32 Well, most of them, 11:33 but it can't be really legislation 11:36 by the chief executive. 11:38 Exactly, like the whole immigration issue-- 11:39 And the way it stopped is the Supreme Court consigned 11:45 that it is unconstitutional but they don't meet so easily, 11:48 the legislature can enact some counter law, 11:51 they don't meet the next day 11:54 and then the other inhibition is impeachment. 11:56 But if he has the support of his party or majority 12:00 then he can affect the executive order-- 12:04 have direct role. 12:05 But we had an example, just recently, 12:08 with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, of Israel 12:11 being invited by John Boehner in Congress 12:13 to come over and speak before Congress, 12:16 that undermined President Obama's Foreign Policy. 12:18 Okay, that shows the limit of the presidency 12:22 in terms of its power 12:24 and in this statement by Madison goes on. 12:26 He says, "Because it is no the stronger 12:28 branch of the system but the weaker. 12:30 It therefore must be leveled against the legislative 12:33 for it is the most powerful and most likely to be abused 12:36 because it is under the least control." 12:38 Very few check and balances on Congress, 12:40 plus they have the power of the purse, 12:41 if you think about it, 12:42 but nobody thinks that through these days. 12:45 Hence so far as a Declaration of Rights 12:46 can tend to prevent the exercise of undue power, 12:49 it cannot be doubted but such declaration is proper 12:52 but, he says, "I confess that I do conceive 12:54 that any government modified like this of the United States, 12:57 the great danger lies rather in the abuse of the community 13:02 than in the legislative body." 13:03 That is we the people, 13:04 the very first words of the preamble 13:06 to the constitution-- 13:08 Which is fascinating. 13:09 We need to take a break, 13:10 we'll continue our reading of James Madison 13:13 after a short break, stay with us. 13:15 This is heavy stuff. |
Revised 2015-06-22