Welcome back to our discussion.
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Before the break
with guest Greg Hamilton,
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we were talking
about very tricky topic,
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the emerging gay
rights and how that interacts
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or inhibits even
perhaps religious freedom
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rights under the constitution.
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You know, we can take
this discussion so many ways.
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I nearly mentioned
before when we were
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talking about it
that when you are talking
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within the church
structure, its ministers
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and its direct
employees the Supreme Court
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were very terrible recently
with the Hosanna-Tabor act in--
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In ruling, yeah.
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Ruling, I'm
sorry. That's all right.
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The ruling
they-- I think in a way
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they set us up
for latest trouble
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because it was so sweeping
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and I think they actually said--
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Kind of nothing, yeah.
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The churches can
really exempt from--
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Discrimination.
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Discrimination, yeah, I
was gonna say prejudice.
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Well, that's not gonna
fly well with the people
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who are trying to
cut down discrimination.
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So we'll see here
there is rife discrimination
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under the
umbrella of the church.
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So maybe that--
even that will be
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rethought at some point.
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But certainly once you get
outside the church employment,
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Christians, people of faith
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and most faiths
have a problem with this.
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They are going to
see they're restricted
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in acting on their faith
if they want to act on it
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but they shouldn't.
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Let me just
challenge the thinking on that.
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Let's look at this theologically
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or in terms of
practice what would Christ do?
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I mean, we started that way
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and I agree with you absolutely.
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What would Christ do if
Christ was a cake baker,
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if Christ was a
florist or cameraman,
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would He say
that He is condoning
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their marriage by
providing wedding services
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for a gay couple?
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I don't think so.
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I think just as He
mingled with drunks,
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whores and tax
collectors it doesn't mean
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He was
condoning their lifestyle.
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The only area that
I do think, you know,
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I'm a writer and I
would like to think writing
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is creative and
others and others
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conceptual artistic talks.
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When you are doing
something like that,
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you need to
pull yourself into it
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and your
sensibility is engaged with it.
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I would think a Christian
could with some legitimacy say,
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you know, I'm not
opposed to, you know,
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I'll give you the service
but I have to tell you upfront,
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I cannot really throw
myself this really into this.
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I may not do the best
for you since, you know,
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I'm uncomfortable with
this topic but I'll do the best,
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you know, I'll
try but I would think
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that there is a
little mismatch there.
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And what's wrong with
that under civil rights law?
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I mean, what I'm saying
is when I look at the civil
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rights code, they
protect certain classes
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in minorities,
to me they are false
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in the spirit of the law of God.
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It's recognizing
that we may not agree
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with their lifestyle.
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We may not agree
with anything they do.
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We may not agree
with what they represent,
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but that's not the point.
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I may not like so and
so, but does that matter?
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The bottom-line is,
we need to and the spirit
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of the love of
Christ provide the needs--
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besides it's just a
business transaction.
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Think about that.
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Now, some people might argue
with me but think about that.
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You're operating a
business for public consumption
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to now say that
we will only accept
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these types of people,
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but we won't accept
this type of people.
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Oh, that's very problematic.
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And you know why single this
even if you are looking at it
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from a purely moral
point of view as a Christian.
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You know, people
come in the door,
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some of them are adulteress,
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some of them are
involved in gay rights--
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Somebody has been married
five times or seven times.
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Some of them are
cheat, liars, cheats,
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child abusers--
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But they will serve them.
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There is a whole gamut
of unsanctified behavior
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even if some or
them are church members
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that involve some of that.
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It's not given to you
to be a judge and jury
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and, you know, the
judge on high to those people.
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You need to
administer human charity
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in compassion to
them and help them.
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And you are providing a business
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for public consumption.
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And when you choose
to provide that service,
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you sign on the
bottom-line with the city
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and the county a
form agreement saying
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you will not violate
antidiscrimination laws.
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And I don't of the
top of my head know
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what you think about
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the Hobby-Lobby case
but I think that's a huge
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step in the wrong direction.
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Well, I do too but hear me out.
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In some
respects, in some respects
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I agree with it.
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Here's the point. Oh, I do.
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In some respects,
I agree with it too.
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Because they didn't say that
they wouldn't provide it to,
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you know, contraceptives
for women and their employees.
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What they said is, it
will be through another means.
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That's what
brought Justice Kennedy
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across the line to
agree with the decision.
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Oh, that's the
government but the employer
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has the ability
to withhold that.
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Make a decision
for someone else.
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But they are not.
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They've never
said once they were
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gonna withhold it.
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What they've said is
that we want to make sure
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that we are not paying for
it and that some other provider
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is paying for it.
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And that's what they agreed to.
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That's really all that
came out of that decision.
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Not only that but that
was dealing with healthcare
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within their company, all right.
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It was not in reference
contextually in reference
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to providing goods and services
to customers who came in.
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Well, let's say they
wanted wedding service.
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Let's see a gay couple came
into Hobby-Lobby craft store
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and wanted these fake
flowers and fake plants
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and all this stuff and shrubs
and everything to decorate
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the church that
you're getting married in,
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all right.
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Hobby-Lobby said very
clearly in their brief
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that's not what this is about.
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This-- we have no
problem that's great.
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We're dealing with only
the healthcare issue here.
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So it's applesand
oranges comparison
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so for state religion
freedom acts and then cite
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so for states in Hobby-Lobby.
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They are citing it incorrectly.
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Well, there are
several sides to this
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and I've tried to be
fair with Liberty Magazine.
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We've had about four articles in
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and overlap since
I don't think this is
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an absolute right or wrong
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if we'll add several
different angels on it
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but it seems to me
that this is empowering
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under the logic of a corporation
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rather than an individual.
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The right now of a
corporation to act,
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to withhold
something based on its view
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and maybe I'm
connecting the wrong dot
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but I heard at an annual dinner
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for the Becket Foundation.
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I heard the main
speaker there say
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something very telling.
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He says and he was
speaking of the Mormon Church
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in particular and
Catholic representatives.
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So then he says there's
way too much talk of the rights
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of the conscience
rights of the individual
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and not enough talk of the
corporate rights of the church.
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I think corporate
think is even coming
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into the religious
arena and that is not good
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for true freedom of conscience.
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I'm personally
against gay marriage
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and I spoke in
behalf of the church,
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even got slap down by somebody
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within the church
for testifying against
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both gay marriage bills
in the senate and the house
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in the Washington Legislature
just a few years ago.
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They became the first
state to actually pass through
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legislative means laws
that approve of gay marriage
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which is interesting because
not only did I testify against
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but I've also been involved
in terms of policy making
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and decision
making within the church
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to shore up our institutions.
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I believe that that's the attack
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that we have to
take and also make sure
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that we don't go on the extreme
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pharisaical bigotry road
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of refusing of legitimizing
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and making legal the
right of business owners
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to refuse serve--
refuse services to gay couples.
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That's my stand that may not
necessarily be the church stand
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but that's Greg
Hamilton's stand.
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Well, you thought of
that well and I think
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most of our religious
liberty representative
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would be in
general agreement with you.
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And the bottom rule is
we need to put into action
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as you said, how
Christ would have--
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how He treated people
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and how He would have
His followers straight
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and that doesn't give license
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to acting
prejudicially on any front.
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It just happens.
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We're talking
about gay's behavior
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and gay marriage but
you could almost choose
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every other
deviance or difference
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from an orthodox
behavioral stance
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but we are not in
that game, we shouldn't be.
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I oppose gay marriage morally
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but legally under
the 14th Amendment,
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The Equal Protection
Clause of 14th Amendment,
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I think legally you
cannot win the battle against
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the
legalization of gay marriage.
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No, it's obvious
this is on a roll
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and even if it's
misbegotten, society has decided
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to empower this
behavior as it done with many--
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different other things
and even one that no one even
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questions now,
women's suffragette thing
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that didn't come easy.
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No, no.
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And they were religionist
who gave text against them.
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Right. Oh, sure.
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You know, you were
citing the Jim Crow era
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but people forget
that the gender inequality
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was fought as bitterly
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with even
theological arguments on that.
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Yeah, oh, absolutely.
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Yeah, it's problematic all over.
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And talking
about the constitution,
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that wasn't in the
original constitution.
00:09:25.69\00:09:27.53
Right. Right.
00:09:27.56\00:09:28.63
Now we have to
deal with these issues--
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Had to have an
amendment for that.
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Well, now it's an
interesting discussion.
00:09:31.55\00:09:33.27
So where do you
think we go from here?
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I mean, this
long story yet to go?
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Well, I think the
gay marriage is approved
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by the US Supreme Court.
00:09:38.87\00:09:39.90
I think that our church
00:09:39.93\00:09:43.07
the Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:09:43.10\00:09:44.75
worldwide will
continue to hold firm
00:09:44.78\00:09:48.30
in terms of its policies
regarding hiring practices,
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the right to choose not to
hire someone whose lifestyle
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does not comport
00:09:55.43\00:09:56.85
with the church's
mission and mores.
00:09:56.88\00:10:01.03
And so I really
believe we're headed towards
00:10:01.06\00:10:05.55
some troublesome
times, issues that will--
00:10:05.58\00:10:07.76
that clearly divide the country.
00:10:07.79\00:10:09.23
In George Orwell's
book 1984 written in 1948
00:10:11.62\00:10:16.23
among other things he
commented on the use of language
00:10:16.26\00:10:18.79
to almost mean the
opposite of its literal meaning.
00:10:18.82\00:10:22.38
I've seen that tendency grow
00:10:22.41\00:10:24.32
and almost get out of
control in the last few decades
00:10:24.35\00:10:27.83
I see it even in the gay moment
and the gay rights agenda,
00:10:27.86\00:10:32.29
a word that pops up
with distressing familiarity
00:10:32.32\00:10:35.68
and musical songs of
only 50, 60 or 100 years ago
00:10:35.71\00:10:40.25
now mean
something totally different.
00:10:40.28\00:10:43.13
Unfortunately, when we
talk about religious rights,
00:10:43.16\00:10:46.39
there's the
danger that we may mean
00:10:46.42\00:10:47.82
something very
different in practice than
00:10:47.85\00:10:51.15
should be meant by those terms.
00:10:51.18\00:10:53.50
Religious freedom
and religious right
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is not a right to
condemn or restrict
00:10:55.22\00:10:58.84
other pre-moral agents no
matter how self destructive
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and unpalatable they
of course might be to us.
00:11:02.68\00:11:06.02
As we enter into
this developing phase
00:11:06.05\00:11:09.10
of a new found
right that may indeed
00:11:09.13\00:11:11.85
be a secularly
logical as women's voting
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and the civil rights moment.
00:11:16.13\00:11:18.34
We need to be careful
that we don't restrict them
00:11:18.37\00:11:20.73
to other people's
initiatives under the guise
00:11:20.76\00:11:23.84
of our own religious freedoms.
00:11:23.87\00:11:26.71
My name is Lincoln
Steed and I'm speaking
00:11:26.74\00:11:28.80
on behalf of Liberty Insider.
00:11:28.83\00:11:31.10