Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Greg Hamilton
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000281A
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00:16 Welcome to "The Liberty Insider."
00:18 This is a program bringing you discussion, 00:20 news, information, analyses, a Religious Liberty events 00:24 and Church State, developments in the United States 00:27 and around the world. 00:29 My name, Lincoln Steed, editor of "Liberty Magazine" 00:32 and my guest, Greg Hamilton, 00:35 president of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association 00:39 and I can't miss the fact of pointing out 00:42 that you've got a Advance Degree in Church States Studies 00:44 from Baylor University in Waco, Texas from the J.M. Dawson 00:49 Institute of Church-State Studies. 00:50 Thanks for having me. 00:52 So that will make you opinionated 00:53 if nothing else, right? 00:55 Well, anything that comes from the Wild Wild West 00:57 is gonna be opinionated. 00:59 You know, I kind of know George of Chicago recently. 01:03 Uh, I was surprised but he made a public statement 01:05 that he would like to talk to Pope Francis 01:08 and find out what he really thinks, 01:10 what his eschatology is, 01:12 what his view of the end of the world is in other words. 01:14 Why would he say such a thing? 01:16 Well, because there's been a number of articles 01:17 that have come out by John Allen, 01:19 who is perhaps the leading Catholic in papal biographer 01:24 in the Catholic church and columnist 01:26 for "The Boston Globe," very reputable. 01:30 He has pointed out that it may that Pope Francis 01:34 is a hurry um, to bring about world peace 01:40 because he knows or he believes 01:42 that in his eschatological views 01:45 that there is an apocalyptic scenario that he shares 01:48 and it's based upon an English novel, 01:51 put out by Robert Hugh Benson in England 01:54 who was a novelist back around the turn of the century. 01:59 I mean, the 20th century from 19th and 20th, 02:02 in 1907 called, Lord of the World. 02:04 In which he depicts... 02:06 2007, isn't? 02:08 No, 1907. Oh, didn't know which year. 02:09 In which he depicts a world in which Marxism and socialism 02:15 and secularism basically seek hegemony 02:19 or dominance in the world and persecuting 02:24 the religions of the world and Christians particularly. 02:28 This Pope sees the universal church of Christ, 02:31 that is, Rome, the Catholic, 02:33 Uh, Roman Catholic Church uniting 02:36 with all the other religions of the world, 02:40 including Protestantism in United States 02:42 against secularism that this is final battle, 02:45 that the final battle is against secularism 02:48 and that secularism is the Anti-Christ. 02:50 And this is fascinating because... 02:53 Someone's been reading Revelation 02:55 at the least jumping off from it. 02:56 Yeah, yeah, of course this Robert Hugh Benson 03:00 depicts the just the opposite as Christianity losing 03:04 and secularism reining supreme throughout the world. 03:07 Revelation talks about the coalition of forces, 03:10 sort of a come by or synchronistic relation of... 03:13 Yes, in Revelation 17. 03:16 Of at least some sort of religious allegiance. 03:18 Correct. 03:20 And I think this Pope, any one that wants religious unity 03:24 has to believe in a certain element of synchronistism 03:26 because you can't argue out all the differences. 03:29 In fact, the appeal for ecumenism is exactly that 03:32 and this present Pope, what was that television event 03:37 with Kenneth Copeland? 03:38 He even said there you know, 03:40 we need to put doctrine aside and you know, 03:43 unite in the basics of our faith, not the doctrines. 03:46 Correct. 03:47 So that's synchronistism that seems to me. 03:48 Well, it is. 03:50 Definitely and yeah, you could, 03:53 in the charismatic movement is all part of. 03:56 I mean, advancing synchronistism as we know 03:58 of whether it is Oprah Winfrey on the you know, 04:01 the secular perspective or whether it's from... 04:04 She was into the therefore... 04:06 Yeah, or from a Christian perspective. 04:08 So yeah, it's very big. 04:10 But I think what's important is that 04:13 what we're seeing is a Catholic church and a Pope, 04:18 who sees as his number one mission 04:21 as uniting the religions of the world. 04:25 And that is big because when we look 04:27 at Revelation 17, we see these ten kings 04:31 who are obviously secular powers, 04:33 who are kings and presidents of different nations 04:38 coming together, the leading ones 04:40 and coming together with Rome, with a united Rome, 04:44 with united religions around the world, 04:46 in fact political leaders looking to Rome, 04:48 looking to the religious leaders of the world, 04:50 for help because they can't seem 04:52 to solve the problems of the world. 04:54 And in this, in this united front, 04:57 they take on at least from this Pope 05:01 and the way I read Revelation 17, 05:03 they take on secularism. 05:06 But what's the problem, the problem with that is, 05:08 really, it's seeking to marginalize anybody 05:12 they disagree with or they view as troublers of the earth, 05:15 including religious minorities that they don't like. 05:17 They persist in evangelism when this Pope 05:21 would like evangelism to cease. 05:23 He would like to see... 05:25 Protect the religious truths. 05:26 He doesn't want religions to compete with each other. 05:28 He wants them united to take on secularism, not each other. 05:33 Now an equally troubling part of his apocalyptic view point, 05:37 now I think George also made this statement 05:39 that he understands that this Pope believes 05:43 that anti-Christ is here already. 05:47 Who is this anti-Christ? 05:48 Who would he think as anti-Christ? 05:49 The Protestant reformers 05:51 and perhaps in a moment of excess, 05:54 Luther said, the Pope is anti-Christ. 05:55 Is He says anybody who puts himself up 05:58 instead of truth and acts in an opposing way, 06:01 you know, you could say they are anti-Christ. 06:03 Well, it's a masterful deflection from the... 06:06 Thank you, that's what I was fishing for. 06:07 It's a masterful deflection. 06:09 You could see there's a deflection. 06:10 Yes, away from themselves as being labeled anti-Christ 06:14 and in league with Satan, 06:15 so to speak and putting it upon secularism. 06:18 Now there's a certain synchronistism 06:20 as I said in another program with you 06:22 some time ago that said that synchronistism 06:25 about this view that derives from Revelation 06:30 and the Muslim view that it also holds 06:32 that there would be a great conflict 06:34 with the anti-Christ at the end of time. 06:36 Yes, and what's interesting is, 06:38 there seems to be a theocracy of the left 06:40 not just at the right that the theocracy of the left 06:42 also envisions this whole idea of world peace and unity 06:47 and whatever it takes to create world peace 06:49 and the number one path to world peace 06:53 is uniting the religions together 06:55 and the world leaders looking upon religious leaders 06:58 as being the solvers of the problems of the world 07:00 because most of the conflicts in the world are what today? 07:04 They are religious. 07:05 And so they are more, more even the Council 07:07 and Formulations of the New York City, 07:09 the US State Department, with Secretary of State, 07:11 John Kerry and Hilary Clinton before him. 07:13 They are more and more looking to religious leaders 07:17 to help them solve the problems 07:18 and the current world crisis around the world. 07:20 So that's significant, that's prophetic 07:23 and in my opinion, Revelation 13:13, 07:27 in the Bible, the Book of Revelation, 07:29 where John sees this fire coming down 07:32 from heaven in view, in the full view of men, okay. 07:36 This is the lamb-like beast that does this. 07:38 Yes, but you have three-fold union coming together 07:42 in Revelation 13 07:43 which is evangelical Protestantism 07:46 or the United States, 07:48 Catholicism or the Catholic church led by the Papacy 07:51 and the Pope and what I when, 07:54 it's termed Spiritualism but I believe it is... 07:56 You think it's secularism? 07:57 I think it's a charismatic movement 07:59 that bring, that ties them together. 08:01 And the same beast in Revelation 17 08:05 when it says these ten kings unite 08:07 for one hour with the beast, it's the same three-fold union 08:11 that's described in Revelation 13. 08:13 So the world leaders unite with the beast. 08:16 They look to these religious leaders 08:19 to basically lead the way, okay. 08:21 And so that's what's interesting. 08:23 So when we look at the development of the image 08:26 to the beast that comes about 08:28 from this beast power, what is it? 08:31 The image to the beast is the complete paradigm shift 08:34 in the United States and around the world. 08:36 It's where the church and religious leaders 08:38 basically call the shots and control the state 08:41 and world leaders in order to solve 08:44 the problems of the world 08:45 and bring about one, uh, world peace. 08:48 Now you're reaching deeply into the book of Revelation 08:50 as well as some explications of that 08:53 by Ellen White to really Adventist 08:55 as well as course of Luther 08:57 and some of the reformers thought this. 09:00 So which is to say it's not new. 09:02 I mean, it's not-- 09:05 There is some very clear logic and Biblical basis 09:08 to see what we clearly see developing in front 09:11 of our eyes is fulfilling these Biblical 09:14 Oh, absolutely. 09:16 Early Writings, page 282 in Ellen White's writing, 09:18 she refers, she sees envision in fact, 09:20 that's her earliest visions that Ellen White had and it's, 09:23 I encourage anybody who hasn't read early writings 09:26 by Ellen G. White, it's really worth your time 09:29 because the first half of the book is her visions, 09:31 the second half which is also through vision, 09:32 was her actual first writings on the life of Christ 09:35 which is fascinating. 09:37 But in there, in page 282, she... 09:39 And by the way, on the visions I should say, 09:42 some people may not realize that the Seventh Day Adventist 09:44 so in Ellen White's visionary activity or fulfillment of Joel 09:48 where it says, there will be visions, 09:50 dreams and visions at the end of time. 09:53 We shouldn't fall for the idea that these only happen 09:56 in Old Testament times or in the apostolic year. 10:00 If God speaks to His people, it could be at any time. 10:03 That's a good point. 10:04 Uh, Early Writings Page 282, in the Chapter titled, 10:08 The Great Time of Trouble, she says, 10:11 she sees the leading men of the earth coming together. 10:13 This ad-hoc coalition of world leaders coming together 10:17 to sign a decree giving the people 10:20 the power to go hunt down those troublers of the earth, 10:26 those Sabbath keepers, 10:27 which is interesting because the only reason 10:31 I think they would hunt them down is because that group, 10:35 The Seventh Day Adventists in particular 10:37 refused to go along with what I call a reversion 10:42 or a revision of the Article 18 10:44 of the Universal Declaration Human Rights, 10:46 which right now gives full freedom of religion 10:50 but they add anti - defamation language 10:52 which then limits and even punishes 10:55 any form of evangelism or proselytization. 10:57 In the East... 10:59 You are right. 11:00 That is the very dangerous development, 11:01 both in the United Nations and international bodies 11:04 and the logic between religions. 11:06 Not to give offence and as part of this, 11:09 this fence-guarding, protect your own community, 11:12 nothing can be said about you or to you. 11:14 Just hands off. 11:16 The organization of Islamic cooperation, 11:18 57 nations, including the nations in Indonesia, 11:24 that have been constantly trying to urge 11:28 the United Nations to adopt or to amend Article 18 11:31 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 11:33 to include anti-defamation language which when, 11:37 will then fulfill the East-longing. 11:40 The people in the East mainly, 11:41 the Muslim-lead East and China and Buddhist 11:44 and other third world religions, 11:46 Hindus and so on to come together 11:49 on the basis of this idea of peaceful co-existence 11:53 that to defame an other religion or to proselytize 11:57 by their definition, 11:59 they define proselytization as coercion 12:01 or as the West believes that to proselytize 12:04 means to merely share or evangelize 12:06 in the free market place of ideas. 12:08 A few years ago I visited Sri Lanka with Dr. John Graz 12:14 and there was a Bill before their parliament, 12:17 thankfully it was defeated. 12:18 They already brought it up a second time, 12:20 was brought by the Buddhist that made it a capital offense 12:24 to entice toward conversion. 12:27 Not to by force but just to act some thing 12:33 that attract person to another religion 12:35 that actually was a capital offense. 12:38 And for a world wide church, 12:39 as the fastest growing religion of the world 12:41 is the Seventh Day Adventist church, 12:42 to be suddenly told they can no longer evangelize 12:45 or to say anything historically about any particular church, 12:49 could be the Roman Catholic Church or even Islam 12:51 or anybody else to say anything negative 12:55 would be considered blasphemy and a hate crime. 12:59 But we're not at that point now. 13:00 No. 13:02 But you could certainly extrapolate 13:04 some of the developments now 13:05 and see that, that could be a reasonable 13:08 in point for what said in emotion realm. 13:10 But where are the world governments, 13:12 where are they going? 13:13 They are going towards targeting extremists. 13:15 Whether it'd be ISIS, 13:16 whether it'd be in their view the Shiafs in Iran, 13:19 or Seventh Day Adventists 13:22 and I'm not into a persecution complex. 13:24 No we said in an other program, 13:25 the things that sort of going west you know, 13:28 the Arab Spring is out of control. 13:31 It's not spring-like anymore. It's sort of winter. 13:34 And I think all around the world leaders, 13:36 they sort of that they withstand. 13:38 They don't really know what to do. 13:39 Then you interject some of the likely scenarios, 13:42 increasing natural calamities, 13:44 flooding with global warming, economic collapse. 13:48 You could easily create a scenario 13:49 where extraordinary measures are needed. 13:52 United States, last time around World War 2 rounded up 13:55 the whole peoples, the Japanese peoples, 13:57 citizens and other ones, 14:00 the Nazis had their own logic to deal not just with the Jews 14:04 but the Slavs and so on. 14:06 So within living memory, 14:07 we've seen these sort of over reaching acts done 14:10 as a logical at the time act, to protect the peoples 14:15 and I think we are heading toward that 14:17 and what the proper Rome 14:19 is doing in itself may seem reasonable 14:22 but I think combined with some of the great emergency, 14:26 it could create an over reach situation 14:30 where something is as extraordinary 14:32 as outlawing the whole thought process 14:35 or people or something could happen. 14:36 It happened. 14:37 I think this Pope, Pope Francis is willing to do 14:40 anything for the sake of world peace, 14:42 especially when it comes to uniting religions. 14:44 I think generally speaking, they take him at face value 14:47 which is all we can really do to most other human beings. 14:50 This is a man of good intent. 14:52 But even good intent can be colored by the structure of, 14:56 a philosophical structure and I think, first of all, 15:00 the poison pill here is the idea 15:03 that any one particular church 15:05 or its magisterium has a lock up 15:08 to what God wills for people. 15:10 Well, the world leaders really like him Like Pope Francis, 15:13 The First but the problem is that conservative Catholics 15:16 within the Catholic curia, the Vatican, 15:19 are very alarmed at him 15:20 because they believe that he will do anything 15:22 in a pragmatic way to sacrifice Catholic belief 15:26 in order to advance world ecumenism and world peace. 15:29 And we've seen that. 15:31 You know, I read a heavily documented book 15:33 about the Eugenio Pacelli who was Pope 15:35 during World War 2 and what he did in cooperation 15:38 with Hitler and Mussolini and Pavelic, 15:41 I think he was in the Vulcans 15:44 and incredible things were done and in the courts, 15:49 Roman Catholics were even sacrificed 15:51 and executed standing up 15:54 for what Rome set this to forward here 15:56 the curia was pursuing at different agenda. 15:59 Can you imagine just a couple of years ago 16:02 almost the whole nation, United States was up in arms 16:06 in denouncing the Catholic church 16:08 with its pedophilias scandals and everything else. 16:10 Now you almost never hear anything about it. 16:12 What's interesting about that 16:14 is America's shifting view of Catholics. 16:17 Yeah, it's true. Better take a break now. 16:18 We've gotten into it and swung on past our mid point. 16:22 Stay with us, come back, we'll continue our discussion, 16:25 Very provocative what we're talking about now. |
Revised 2015-08-27