Welcome to "The
Liberty Insider."
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This is a program
bringing you discussion,
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news, information, analyses,
a Religious Liberty events
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and Church State, developments
in the United States
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and around the world.
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My name, Lincoln Steed,
editor of "Liberty Magazine"
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and my guest, Greg Hamilton,
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president of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association
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and I can't miss
the fact of pointing out
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that you've got a Advance
Degree in Church States Studies
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from Baylor University in
Waco, Texas from the J.M. Dawson
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Institute of
Church-State Studies.
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Thanks for having me.
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So that will
make you opinionated
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if nothing else, right?
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Well, anything that
comes from the Wild Wild West
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is gonna be opinionated.
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You know, I kind of know
George of Chicago recently.
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Uh, I was surprised but
he made a public statement
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that he would like
to talk to Pope Francis
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and find out
what he really thinks,
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what his eschatology is,
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what his view of the end of
the world is in other words.
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Why would he say such a thing?
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Well, because there's
been a number of articles
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that have come
out by John Allen,
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who is perhaps the leading
Catholic in papal biographer
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in the Catholic
church and columnist
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for "The Boston
Globe," very reputable.
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He has pointed out that
it may that Pope Francis
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is a hurry um, to
bring about world peace
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because he knows or he believes
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that in his eschatological views
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that there is an apocalyptic
scenario that he shares
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and it's based
upon an English novel,
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put out by Robert
Hugh Benson in England
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who was a novelist back
around the turn of the century.
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I mean, the 20th
century from 19th and 20th,
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in 1907 called,
Lord of the World.
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In which he depicts...
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2007, isn't?
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No, 1907. Oh,
didn't know which year.
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In which he depicts a world
in which Marxism and socialism
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and secularism
basically seek hegemony
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or dominance in the
world and persecuting
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the religions of the world
and Christians particularly.
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This Pope sees the
universal church of Christ,
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that is, Rome, the Catholic,
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Uh, Roman
Catholic Church uniting
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with all the other
religions of the world,
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including
Protestantism in United States
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against secularism
that this is final battle,
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that the final
battle is against secularism
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and that
secularism is the Anti-Christ.
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And this is
fascinating because...
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Someone's been
reading Revelation
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at the least
jumping off from it.
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Yeah, yeah, of course
this Robert Hugh Benson
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depicts the just the
opposite as Christianity losing
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and secularism reining
supreme throughout the world.
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Revelation talks about
the coalition of forces,
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sort of a come by or
synchronistic relation of...
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Yes, in Revelation 17.
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Of at least some sort
of religious allegiance.
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Correct.
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And I think this Pope, any
one that wants religious unity
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has to believe in a certain
element of synchronistism
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because you can't argue
out all the differences.
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In fact, the appeal for
ecumenism is exactly that
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and this present Pope,
what was that television event
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with Kenneth Copeland?
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He even said there you know,
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we need to put
doctrine aside and you know,
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unite in the basics of
our faith, not the doctrines.
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Correct.
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So that's
synchronistism that seems to me.
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Well, it is.
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Definitely and yeah, you could,
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in the charismatic
movement is all part of.
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I mean, advancing
synchronistism as we know
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of whether it is Oprah
Winfrey on the you know,
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the secular perspective
or whether it's from...
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She was into the therefore...
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Yeah, or from a
Christian perspective.
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So yeah, it's very big.
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But I think
what's important is that
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what we're seeing is a
Catholic church and a Pope,
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who sees as his
number one mission
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as uniting the
religions of the world.
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And that is big
because when we look
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at Revelation 17,
we see these ten kings
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who are
obviously secular powers,
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who are kings and
presidents of different nations
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coming
together, the leading ones
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and coming together with
Rome, with a united Rome,
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with united
religions around the world,
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in fact political
leaders looking to Rome,
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looking to the
religious leaders of the world,
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for help because they can't seem
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to solve the
problems of the world.
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And in this, in
this united front,
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they take on at
least from this Pope
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and the way I
read Revelation 17,
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they take on secularism.
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But what's the problem,
the problem with that is,
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really, it's seeking
to marginalize anybody
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they disagree with or they
view as troublers of the earth,
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including religious
minorities that they don't like.
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They persist in
evangelism when this Pope
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would like evangelism to cease.
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He would like to see...
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Protect the religious truths.
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He doesn't want religions
to compete with each other.
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He wants them united to take
on secularism, not each other.
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Now an equally troubling part
of his apocalyptic view point,
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now I think George
also made this statement
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that he understands
that this Pope believes
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that
anti-Christ is here already.
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Who is this anti-Christ?
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Who would he
think as anti-Christ?
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The Protestant reformers
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and perhaps in a
moment of excess,
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Luther said, the
Pope is anti-Christ.
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Is He says anybody
who puts himself up
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instead of truth and
acts in an opposing way,
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you know, you could
say they are anti-Christ.
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Well, it's a
masterful deflection from the...
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Thank you, that's
what I was fishing for.
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It's a masterful deflection.
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You could see
there's a deflection.
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Yes, away from themselves
as being labeled anti-Christ
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and in league with Satan,
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so to speak and
putting it upon secularism.
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Now there's a
certain synchronistism
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as I said in
another program with you
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some time ago that
said that synchronistism
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about this view that
derives from Revelation
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and the Muslim
view that it also holds
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that there would
be a great conflict
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with the
anti-Christ at the end of time.
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Yes, and what's interesting is,
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there seems to be a
theocracy of the left
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not just at the right
that the theocracy of the left
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also envisions this whole
idea of world peace and unity
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and whatever it
takes to create world peace
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and the number one
path to world peace
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is uniting the
religions together
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and the world leaders
looking upon religious leaders
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as being the solvers of
the problems of the world
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because most of the conflicts
in the world are what today?
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They are religious.
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And so they are
more, more even the Council
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and Formulations
of the New York City,
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the US State Department,
with Secretary of State,
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John Kerry and
Hilary Clinton before him.
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They are more and more
looking to religious leaders
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to help them solve the problems
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and the current world
crisis around the world.
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So that's
significant, that's prophetic
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and in my
opinion, Revelation 13:13,
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in the Bible, the
Book of Revelation,
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where John sees
this fire coming down
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from heaven in view, in
the full view of men, okay.
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This is the
lamb-like beast that does this.
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Yes, but you have
three-fold union coming together
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in Revelation 13
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which is
evangelical Protestantism
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or the United States,
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Catholicism or the Catholic
church led by the Papacy
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and the Pope and what I when,
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it's termed Spiritualism
but I believe it is...
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You think it's secularism?
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I think it's a
charismatic movement
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that bring, that
ties them together.
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And the same
beast in Revelation 17
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when it says
these ten kings unite
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for one hour with the beast,
it's the same three-fold union
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that's described
in Revelation 13.
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So the world leaders
unite with the beast.
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They look to
these religious leaders
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to basically lead the way, okay.
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And so that's
what's interesting.
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So when we look at the
development of the image
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to the beast that comes about
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from this beast
power, what is it?
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The image to the beast is
the complete paradigm shift
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in the United States
and around the world.
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It's where the
church and religious leaders
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basically call the
shots and control the state
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and world
leaders in order to solve
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the problems of the world
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and bring about
one, uh, world peace.
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Now you're reaching deeply
into the book of Revelation
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as well as some
explications of that
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by Ellen White
to really Adventist
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as well as course of Luther
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and some of the
reformers thought this.
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So which is to say it's not new.
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I mean, it's not--
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There is some very
clear logic and Biblical basis
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to see what we clearly
see developing in front
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of our eyes is
fulfilling these Biblical
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Oh, absolutely.
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Early Writings, page 282
in Ellen White's writing,
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she refers, she
sees envision in fact,
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that's her earliest visions
that Ellen White had and it's,
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I encourage anybody who
hasn't read early writings
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by Ellen G. White,
it's really worth your time
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because the first half
of the book is her visions,
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the second half which
is also through vision,
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was her actual first
writings on the life of Christ
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which is fascinating.
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But in there,
in page 282, she...
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And by the way, on
the visions I should say,
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some people may not realize
that the Seventh Day Adventist
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so in Ellen White's visionary
activity or fulfillment of Joel
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where it says,
there will be visions,
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dreams and visions
at the end of time.
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We shouldn't fall for the
idea that these only happen
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in Old Testament times
or in the apostolic year.
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If God speaks to His
people, it could be at any time.
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That's a good point.
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Uh, Early Writings Page
282, in the Chapter titled,
00:10:04.60\00:10:08.20
The Great Time of
Trouble, she says,
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she sees the leading men
of the earth coming together.
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This ad-hoc coalition of
world leaders coming together
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to sign a decree
giving the people
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the power to go hunt down
those troublers of the earth,
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those Sabbath keepers,
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which is interesting
because the only reason
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I think they would hunt
them down is because that group,
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The Seventh Day
Adventists in particular
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refused to go along
with what I call a reversion
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or a revision of the Article 18
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of the Universal
Declaration Human Rights,
00:10:44.81\00:10:46.37
which right now gives
full freedom of religion
00:10:46.41\00:10:50.08
but they add anti
- defamation language
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which then
limits and even punishes
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any form of
evangelism or proselytization.
00:10:55.22\00:10:57.79
In the East...
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You are right.
00:10:59.19\00:11:00.52
That is the very
dangerous development,
00:11:00.56\00:11:01.89
both in the United
Nations and international bodies
00:11:01.92\00:11:04.66
and the logic between religions.
00:11:04.69\00:11:06.90
Not to give offence
and as part of this,
00:11:06.93\00:11:09.53
this fence-guarding,
protect your own community,
00:11:09.56\00:11:12.30
nothing can be said
about you or to you.
00:11:12.33\00:11:14.84
Just hands off.
00:11:14.87\00:11:16.20
The organization of
Islamic cooperation,
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57 nations, including
the nations in Indonesia,
00:11:18.31\00:11:24.68
that have been
constantly trying to urge
00:11:24.71\00:11:28.02
the United Nations to
adopt or to amend Article 18
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of the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights
00:11:31.59\00:11:33.39
to include anti-defamation
language which when,
00:11:33.42\00:11:37.16
will then
fulfill the East-longing.
00:11:37.19\00:11:40.03
The people in the East mainly,
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the Muslim-lead East
and China and Buddhist
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and other third world religions,
00:11:44.40\00:11:46.43
Hindus and so
on to come together
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on the basis of this
idea of peaceful co-existence
00:11:49.64\00:11:53.64
that to defame an other
religion or to proselytize
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by their definition,
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they define
proselytization as coercion
00:11:59.01\00:12:01.38
or as the West
believes that to proselytize
00:12:01.42\00:12:04.29
means to merely
share or evangelize
00:12:04.32\00:12:06.59
in the free
market place of ideas.
00:12:06.62\00:12:08.19
A few years ago I visited
Sri Lanka with Dr. John Graz
00:12:08.22\00:12:14.16
and there was a Bill
before their parliament,
00:12:14.20\00:12:17.33
thankfully it was defeated.
00:12:17.37\00:12:18.93
They already
brought it up a second time,
00:12:18.97\00:12:20.44
was brought by the Buddhist
that made it a capital offense
00:12:20.47\00:12:24.94
to entice toward conversion.
00:12:24.97\00:12:27.94
Not to by force but
just to act some thing
00:12:27.98\00:12:33.28
that attract
person to another religion
00:12:33.31\00:12:35.28
that actually was
a capital offense.
00:12:35.32\00:12:37.99
And for a world wide church,
00:12:38.02\00:12:39.45
as the fastest
growing religion of the world
00:12:39.49\00:12:41.49
is the Seventh
Day Adventist church,
00:12:41.52\00:12:42.92
to be suddenly told
they can no longer evangelize
00:12:42.96\00:12:45.93
or to say anything historically
about any particular church,
00:12:45.96\00:12:49.73
could be the Roman
Catholic Church or even Islam
00:12:49.76\00:12:51.93
or anybody else to
say anything negative
00:12:51.97\00:12:54.97
would be considered
blasphemy and a hate crime.
00:12:55.00\00:12:59.37
But we're not at that point now.
00:12:59.41\00:13:00.74
No.
00:13:00.78\00:13:02.11
But you could
certainly extrapolate
00:13:02.14\00:13:04.01
some of the developments now
00:13:04.05\00:13:05.51
and see that, that
could be a reasonable
00:13:05.55\00:13:08.82
in point for what
said in emotion realm.
00:13:08.85\00:13:10.79
But where are the
world governments,
00:13:10.82\00:13:12.15
where are they going?
00:13:12.19\00:13:13.52
They are going
towards targeting extremists.
00:13:13.56\00:13:15.06
Whether it'd be ISIS,
00:13:15.09\00:13:16.42
whether it'd be in
their view the Shiafs in Iran,
00:13:16.46\00:13:19.43
or Seventh Day Adventists
00:13:19.46\00:13:22.36
and I'm not into a
persecution complex.
00:13:22.40\00:13:24.33
No we said in an other program,
00:13:24.37\00:13:25.87
the things that sort
of going west you know,
00:13:25.90\00:13:28.87
the Arab Spring
is out of control.
00:13:28.90\00:13:31.01
It's not spring-like
anymore. It's sort of winter.
00:13:31.04\00:13:34.24
And I think all
around the world leaders,
00:13:34.28\00:13:36.95
they sort of
that they withstand.
00:13:36.98\00:13:38.31
They don't
really know what to do.
00:13:38.35\00:13:39.68
Then you interject some
of the likely scenarios,
00:13:39.71\00:13:42.95
increasing natural calamities,
00:13:42.98\00:13:44.32
flooding with global
warming, economic collapse.
00:13:44.35\00:13:48.09
You could easily
create a scenario
00:13:48.12\00:13:49.82
where extraordinary
measures are needed.
00:13:49.86\00:13:52.63
United States, last time
around World War 2 rounded up
00:13:52.66\00:13:55.53
the whole peoples,
the Japanese peoples,
00:13:55.56\00:13:57.83
citizens and other ones,
00:13:57.87\00:14:00.80
the Nazis had their own logic
to deal not just with the Jews
00:14:00.84\00:14:04.81
but the Slavs and so on.
00:14:04.84\00:14:06.21
So within living memory,
00:14:06.24\00:14:07.64
we've seen these sort
of over reaching acts done
00:14:07.68\00:14:10.91
as a logical at the time
act, to protect the peoples
00:14:10.95\00:14:15.68
and I think we are
heading toward that
00:14:15.72\00:14:17.59
and what the proper Rome
00:14:17.62\00:14:19.39
is doing in itself
may seem reasonable
00:14:19.42\00:14:22.66
but I think combined with
some of the great emergency,
00:14:22.69\00:14:26.80
it could create an
over reach situation
00:14:26.83\00:14:30.03
where something
is as extraordinary
00:14:30.07\00:14:32.63
as outlawing the
whole thought process
00:14:32.67\00:14:35.00
or people or
something could happen.
00:14:35.04\00:14:36.37
It happened.
00:14:36.40\00:14:37.74
I think this Pope, Pope
Francis is willing to do
00:14:37.77\00:14:40.04
anything for the
sake of world peace,
00:14:40.08\00:14:42.31
especially when it
comes to uniting religions.
00:14:42.34\00:14:44.45
I think generally speaking,
they take him at face value
00:14:44.48\00:14:47.05
which is all we can really
do to most other human beings.
00:14:47.08\00:14:50.29
This is a man of good intent.
00:14:50.32\00:14:52.95
But even good intent can be
colored by the structure of,
00:14:52.99\00:14:56.49
a philosophical structure
and I think, first of all,
00:14:56.52\00:15:00.86
the poison pill here is the idea
00:15:00.90\00:15:02.96
that any one particular church
00:15:03.00\00:15:05.40
or its magisterium has a lock up
00:15:05.43\00:15:08.64
to what God wills for people.
00:15:08.67\00:15:10.31
Well, the world leaders really
like him Like Pope Francis,
00:15:10.34\00:15:13.21
The First but the problem
is that conservative Catholics
00:15:13.24\00:15:16.68
within the
Catholic curia, the Vatican,
00:15:16.71\00:15:19.41
are very alarmed at him
00:15:19.45\00:15:20.78
because they believe
that he will do anything
00:15:20.82\00:15:22.92
in a pragmatic way to
sacrifice Catholic belief
00:15:22.95\00:15:26.92
in order to advance world
ecumenism and world peace.
00:15:26.96\00:15:29.86
And we've seen that.
00:15:29.89\00:15:31.23
You know, I read a
heavily documented book
00:15:31.26\00:15:33.63
about the Eugenio
Pacelli who was Pope
00:15:33.66\00:15:35.76
during World War 2 and
what he did in cooperation
00:15:35.80\00:15:38.53
with Hitler and
Mussolini and Pavelic,
00:15:38.57\00:15:41.84
I think he was in the Vulcans
00:15:41.87\00:15:44.94
and incredible things
were done and in the courts,
00:15:44.97\00:15:49.54
Roman Catholics
were even sacrificed
00:15:49.58\00:15:51.78
and executed standing up
00:15:51.81\00:15:54.58
for what Rome set
this to forward here
00:15:54.62\00:15:56.55
the curia was
pursuing at different agenda.
00:15:56.58\00:15:59.85
Can you imagine just
a couple of years ago
00:15:59.89\00:16:02.86
almost the whole nation,
United States was up in arms
00:16:02.89\00:16:06.23
in denouncing
the Catholic church
00:16:06.26\00:16:08.16
with its pedophilias
scandals and everything else.
00:16:08.20\00:16:10.53
Now you almost never
hear anything about it.
00:16:10.57\00:16:12.67
What's interesting about that
00:16:12.70\00:16:14.17
is America's
shifting view of Catholics.
00:16:14.20\00:16:17.04
Yeah, it's true.
Better take a break now.
00:16:17.07\00:16:18.87
We've gotten into it and
swung on past our mid point.
00:16:18.91\00:16:22.08
Stay with us, come back,
we'll continue our discussion,
00:16:22.11\00:16:25.01
Very provocative what
we're talking about now.
00:16:25.05\00:16:27.78