Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Greg Hamilton
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000280A
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00:17 Welcome to 'The Liberty Insider',
00:19 this is a program that brings you 00:21 up-to-date news, discussion 00:23 and analysis of religious liberty events 00:25 and church states events all around the world. 00:28 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine. 00:31 And my guest on the program is Gregory Hamilton, 00:35 a man of many letters, but, you're president 00:39 of the North-West Liberty Association 00:42 and you have a post graduate degree 00:44 in church state studies from Baylor university, 00:47 the J. M. Dawson Institute 00:49 or the Baylor university at Waco, Texas. 00:51 So, I know, you know what you're talking about 00:53 and I've learned it from experience, 00:57 there's a joke that I hear now and then, 01:00 "Is the Pope Catholic?" We all know he is. 01:03 I know, yes. 01:05 And you know, this is a program of religious liberty 01:07 and I need the profess anything 01:08 that we'll say on this program, 01:11 we dedicated it to defending people's 01:14 right to believe anything. 01:16 They don't have to be right, 01:17 they just have to hold it deeply as a conviction 01:20 and you and I will defend their right to believe that. 01:23 When we analyse the dynamic between the religions 01:26 or between church and state and so on. 01:28 We have to describe things as they are 01:30 and there's no questions that 01:33 through the long sweep of the centuries 01:34 and the Roman Catholic Church 01:36 which grew out of the early Christian community 01:38 became more of a political player 01:41 and of course necessitated that I think, the reformation 01:44 and to this day holds certain things different then-- 01:47 then the inheritors of that reformation 01:49 and as I say in Liberty magazine from time to time. 01:53 There's a special danger, 01:54 I think, in the operations of the Roman Catholic Church 01:57 because it's, when you're talking about 01:59 church and state separation. 02:00 Because, here's a church masquerading 02:02 as a state and a state masquerading as church. 02:05 So, in that context, let's talk a little bit about 02:09 the new papa, Pope Francis. 02:12 Well. A Jesuit 02:14 Yes. Is that significant in itself? 02:16 No, I don't think so, and I'm a contrarian on this-- 02:20 on this issues because from my reading 02:24 of Pope Francis, is the way he first became Pope, 02:26 when he was first elected I read all the biographies, 02:29 little short biographies that I can get my hands on 02:32 and one of the things that I discovered including, 02:35 those biographies that weren't you know, 02:37 obviously Pro-pope or pro-catholic 02:39 but, I also read those were pro-catholic 02:41 and they harmonized on one thing, 02:44 that this Pope is not that friendly to his own order, 02:49 the Jesuit order and it all began, 02:52 when he was Archbishop and Cardinal, 02:55 Mario Bergoglio in Argentina 02:59 and especially in Buenos Aires, 03:02 where his bishopric was located, 03:06 he joined hands with Pope John Paul II, 03:10 when Pope John was the Pope. 03:13 He joined hands with him in making war against 03:16 not so much liberation theology, 03:18 but the communist elements that had linked with it 03:21 due to the Jesuit influence and so, in fact, so much so 03:27 that Pope Francis was called to was subpoenaed, 03:31 before the highest court in Argentina 03:34 for the-with a charge of... 03:36 Operation with the military hunter? 03:37 With complexity with a military hunter, 03:40 in the late 80', 1980's 03:43 and even the killing of two Jesuit priests and... 03:46 He wasn't accused to killing them, 03:48 but he pretty much... 03:49 Accused to be in compulsive with the murders, yes. 03:52 Even when so far as to pretty much turn 03:54 over to the authorities or wash his hands of them. 03:57 Yes, and the evidence that came out 03:59 obviously exonerated him, that he'd actually helped them, 04:02 that he'd actually helped Jesuit lay people and-- 04:06 and those who were involved in the military hunter 04:12 and so forth and so here, here this Pope was not, 04:19 I mean, yes, he was a Jesuit and yes, I'm sure he, 04:22 he appreciated, the order and everything 04:25 but, in the end why did he not as a the first Jesuit pope 04:31 take on a Jesuit patron saints' name? 04:34 Like Xavier or Loyala, why not? 04:38 Think about that, I mean, 04:40 if you know anything about Catholic orders, 04:42 whether it's a Benedictine order, 04:44 whether it's the Jesuit order, whether it's a Franciscan order 04:52 or the Dominican Order. 04:53 They're consulate each other throats, 04:55 they're involved in corruption scandals, 04:57 in court for murder. 04:58 I mean, they, I'm not trying to create a conspiracy-- 05:00 On occasion... 05:01 I'm not trying to create a conspiracy, 05:03 but what I'm saying is they don't like each other that well 05:06 and so for him to take on the name of Pope Francis 05:10 after the Franciscan Order to me, is very significant. 05:13 Well, yes, I'm sure it is, 05:16 'cause they choose those names purely for symbolism. 05:20 But, how many other Jesuits popes have there been. 05:24 Is this president? 05:25 Yes, it is the president. 05:26 And it sort of odd in its own way 05:28 because The Jesuit Order is the largest order. 05:31 Yes. 05:32 Although it's not one of the longest standing, 05:34 it was only established by 05:36 Ignatius de Loyola in the 1500's, 05:38 as a direct response to the reformation 05:42 and they were set-up, as shocked troops 05:44 if you for like the papacy to defend the church 05:47 and to roll back the reformation... 05:49 But the Jesuit Order has no love... 05:51 They have no love lost for this Pope, 05:53 really they don't, they co-opt him 05:55 but they really have no the love loss. 05:57 It is true that in many of his theories 06:01 it comes very Jesuit 06:02 and especially when it comes to the world economic, 06:06 he's very socialist in his thinking, 06:08 The Jesuit Order with very socialist for many year 06:12 and still is very left leaning socialist, 06:16 and that was true especially in a Latin America 06:20 with the liberation theology movement. 06:22 Well, let me put in a different way, 06:24 this is my take on it. 06:25 Back to the joke "Is the Pope Catholic?" 06:28 I think we could safely assume that 06:30 that this Pope is a true believer in the Papacy. 06:33 Sure. 06:34 So, he's dedicated to upholding it. 06:36 And I see him bring Jesuit techniques 06:41 to bare to support the papacy 06:43 and what are those techniques been? 06:45 Yes, in the early days of the reformation... 06:47 Diversion. 06:48 They were as the, yes, they got into that 06:50 but, initially it was often quite violent 06:53 and direct, they could be the inquisitives and so on. 06:56 But, it moved into an intellectual diversions... 07:01 And arguments and persuasions and subterfuge, it was really 07:06 calculating psychological welfare of your life. 07:09 To appear to be one thing but actually doing another. 07:11 So I do believe in that vain, 07:14 he's bringing the artifice in The Jesuit Order to bare 07:18 where in the past we probably had a few armatures 07:21 advancing the papacy. 07:22 I think this is a serious, 07:25 advancement of the office of the papacy... 07:26 Well, he's definitely... 07:27 And it's their right, but just it describing it. 07:29 I think that's what's going on. 07:31 The-they've pulled out the main team now 07:34 to save the institution. 07:37 He's the most skillful and charismatic Pope 07:39 I've seen in my life time and even more so, 07:43 in fact I'd say, far more so, than Pope John Paul the I. 07:48 I think it's significant 07:49 because this pope is well loved by the recent pew 07:56 Paul said that in the United States, 07:59 that 90% of the Catholics in United States 08:01 support him to help both conservatives and liberals. 08:05 More liberals and conservatives. 08:07 But, he's interesting 08:09 because he talks a liberal welcoming inclusive talk. 08:15 Okay, on varying issues, including even gay rights 08:19 and even gay marriage but in the end... 08:21 Not changed any substance. 08:23 It doesn't change any substance, 08:24 that's correct and so that's what interesting 08:27 and yet the conservatives don't trust that. 08:29 They somehow, there's this big battle in the curia 08:33 that's happening right now. 08:35 And I've often said this 08:36 talking to some of their own church members, 08:38 that we need to understand that there's a bit of a battle 08:41 still raging for the soul of the Roman Catholic Church. 08:44 And that's on the battleground of the Vatican Two 08:47 and I'm not really sure... 08:49 You mean, over Vatican Two, yes. 08:50 Yes. The battleground over... 08:52 Over Vatican Two and the two previous popes 08:56 had something to do with Vatican Two 08:57 but they came to reconsider it 09:00 and were reactionary and more authoritarian. 09:03 I'm not really sure where this man stands on that, 09:07 likely he's a conservative for them too. 09:09 But, he's-- 09:11 I would say he's not like pro-Vatican Two. 09:13 But, I would say he's beyond Vatican Two, 09:14 I would say that he's, as my, as one of my professors 09:18 at Baylor university put it on the study of the history, 09:22 the ecumenical councils cleared 09:23 from Nicaean council the Vatican Two, 09:26 he's an expert in it, he said that, 09:29 you know that in the future the Rome, 09:32 the Catholic Church seems to be moving 09:34 to some unfinished business to a Vatican Three 09:38 and I wouldn't be surprised that, 09:40 if that one the legacies of Pope Francis 09:44 will be to initiate a Vatican Three. 09:46 Yes, I agree with you, I haven't read anything on it. 09:48 But, it just seems like... I have, yeah. 09:50 I think that's where it's all heading. 09:53 Now, Vatican Two had some very good things 09:56 and for us, in religious liberty. 09:58 It has a center point to Dignitatis humanae, 10:02 which I think is, it hasn't solved everything. 10:05 No, but, it's the first time that the Catholic Church 10:06 actually promoted 10:07 and recognized the free exercise of... 10:09 Right. 10:10 And as Cardinal Dolan said a few years ago 10:12 and I heard him speak and he was very honest 10:15 in front of Catholic audience. 10:16 He hesitated in his speech and he said, 10:18 "You know Roman Catholics would not once have spoken 10:21 this way about religious liberty." 10:23 He says "we once held, that era has no rights." 10:26 Yes. 10:27 Now, that's where they came from 10:29 and that's back to one of other discussions, 10:30 that's really where Islam 10:32 fortunately resides at the moment. 10:34 And that's where the Christian right is, 10:35 because essentially when you look at 10:38 Dignitatis humanae which you're talking about 10:40 terms of the Catholic Churches, 10:42 recognition of free exercise of the religion. 10:44 That's as far as they go, like the Christian right, 10:46 that's as far as they go. 10:48 The Christian, I mean, the Southern Baptist church 10:50 and many other churches once believed 10:52 in the Constitutional Separation of church and state. 10:54 The Catholic Church has never bowed the need 10:57 to the Constitutional Separation of church and state. 10:59 They have acknowledged 11:01 the free exercise of the religion 11:02 but never the Constitutional Separation 11:03 of church and state. 11:05 Well, talking about subterfuge, 11:07 I think, they've tried to have their cake and eat it too. 11:10 I read Roman Catholic websites 11:12 and they say wonderful things about 11:14 Separation of church and state. 11:15 They say, they are for it 11:17 but, they define it differently... 11:18 By only protecting their own institutions. 11:20 Right, they want it separate 11:22 and then they define it under Subsidiarity. 11:25 There are separate but the state is subsidiary 11:28 to the authority of the church. 11:29 Of the church... 11:30 So, that's separate and yet not equal. 11:32 Yes, that's correct 11:34 And, that's a stand off as long as, 11:37 Dignitatis humanae and Vatican Two holds. 11:41 When that's out of the equation then it's back. 11:43 See, constitutional Separation of church and state 11:45 creates and equality of the guarantee 11:48 of religious freedom for all faiths. 11:50 Where as the catholic church always wants 11:52 to view itself as the superior. 11:54 Yeah, and, you know, I know, 11:56 that's their right to think that way, I mean... 11:58 Even in some smaller churches like 12:00 the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, 12:01 we sometimes think that's we are superior. 12:02 That's true 12:04 We forget the Jesus says, 12:05 "Other sheep have I not of this pasture." 12:07 Yes, that's true. 12:08 And, so God, you know, the Spirit works 12:11 with whom He will. 12:12 I would say that's dying out though, 12:14 generational-- church, yeah. 12:17 And now, we're going to the other extreme towards 12:20 being like the rest of the evangelic church down-- 12:22 Oh, no, we need to have the sense of a special charter, 12:26 when have a high and holy calling 12:28 and that, what we believe is true. 12:30 But it's very dangerous for anyone in any religion. 12:33 But, particularly in Christianity to think, 12:35 "I am only right one and you're all 12:38 heretics in danger of your soul" 12:40 Yeah, absolutely. 12:41 Back to the issue of the Jesuit order. 12:45 You know, it's interesting that the Jesuit order 12:48 was pretty much supplanted back in 1984. 12:50 There was this big ceremony 12:52 by Pope John Paul the second at St Peter's basilica. 12:57 Ordaining and a secret order, 13:00 Opus Dei, for the first time, 13:02 brought it out of a secret order status 13:04 to a full-fledged Catholic order. 13:06 And a certain movie brought that to attention. 13:08 We better take a break for a few minutes 13:09 and come back and continue this discussion. |
Revised 2015-09-10