Welcome to 'The
Liberty Insider',
00:00:17.01\00:00:18.98
this is a
program that brings you
00:00:19.01\00:00:21.08
up-to-date news, discussion
00:00:21.12\00:00:22.98
and analysis of
religious liberty events
00:00:23.02\00:00:25.75
and church states
events all around the world.
00:00:25.79\00:00:28.62
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine.
00:00:28.66\00:00:31.83
And my guest on the
program is Gregory Hamilton,
00:00:31.86\00:00:35.40
a man of many
letters, but, you're president
00:00:35.43\00:00:39.63
of the North-West
Liberty Association
00:00:39.67\00:00:42.04
and you have a
post graduate degree
00:00:42.07\00:00:44.77
in church state
studies from Baylor university,
00:00:44.81\00:00:47.18
the J. M. Dawson Institute
00:00:47.21\00:00:49.34
or the Baylor
university at Waco, Texas.
00:00:49.38\00:00:51.05
So, I know, you know
what you're talking about
00:00:51.08\00:00:53.52
and I've learned
it from experience,
00:00:53.55\00:00:57.75
there's a joke that
I hear now and then,
00:00:57.79\00:01:00.19
"Is the Pope
Catholic?" We all know he is.
00:01:00.22\00:01:03.43
I know, yes.
00:01:03.46\00:01:04.99
And you know, this is a
program of religious liberty
00:01:05.03\00:01:07.20
and I need the profess anything
00:01:07.23\00:01:08.63
that we'll say on this program,
00:01:08.66\00:01:11.73
we dedicated it
to defending people's
00:01:11.77\00:01:14.30
right to believe anything.
00:01:14.34\00:01:16.37
They don't have to be right,
00:01:16.40\00:01:17.74
they just have to hold
it deeply as a conviction
00:01:17.77\00:01:20.24
and you and I will defend
their right to believe that.
00:01:20.28\00:01:22.98
When we analyse the
dynamic between the religions
00:01:23.01\00:01:26.01
or between church
and state and so on.
00:01:26.05\00:01:28.32
We have to
describe things as they are
00:01:28.35\00:01:30.09
and there's no questions that
00:01:30.12\00:01:32.99
through the long
sweep of the centuries
00:01:33.02\00:01:34.82
and the Roman Catholic Church
00:01:34.86\00:01:36.19
which grew out of the
early Christian community
00:01:36.22\00:01:38.43
became more of
a political player
00:01:38.46\00:01:41.06
and of course necessitated
that I think, the reformation
00:01:41.10\00:01:44.37
and to this day holds
certain things different then--
00:01:44.40\00:01:47.67
then the
inheritors of that reformation
00:01:47.70\00:01:49.64
and as I say in Liberty
magazine from time to time.
00:01:49.67\00:01:53.44
There's a special danger,
00:01:53.48\00:01:54.81
I think, in the operations
of the Roman Catholic Church
00:01:54.84\00:01:57.48
because it's, when
you're talking about
00:01:57.51\00:01:59.08
church and state separation.
00:01:59.11\00:02:00.62
Because, here's a
church masquerading
00:02:00.65\00:02:02.72
as a state and a state
masquerading as church.
00:02:02.75\00:02:05.79
So, in that context,
let's talk a little bit about
00:02:05.82\00:02:09.49
the new papa, Pope Francis.
00:02:09.52\00:02:12.66
Well. A Jesuit
00:02:12.69\00:02:14.20
Yes. Is that
significant in itself?
00:02:14.23\00:02:16.43
No, I don't think so, and
I'm a contrarian on this--
00:02:16.46\00:02:20.64
on this issues
because from my reading
00:02:20.67\00:02:24.24
of Pope Francis, is the
way he first became Pope,
00:02:24.27\00:02:26.31
when he was first elected
I read all the biographies,
00:02:26.34\00:02:29.31
little short biographies
that I can get my hands on
00:02:29.34\00:02:32.45
and one of the things
that I discovered including,
00:02:32.48\00:02:35.75
those biographies
that weren't you know,
00:02:35.78\00:02:37.62
obviously
Pro-pope or pro-catholic
00:02:37.65\00:02:39.82
but, I also read
those were pro-catholic
00:02:39.85\00:02:41.62
and they
harmonized on one thing,
00:02:41.66\00:02:44.46
that this Pope is not
that friendly to his own order,
00:02:44.49\00:02:49.03
the Jesuit order
and it all began,
00:02:49.06\00:02:52.73
when he was
Archbishop and Cardinal,
00:02:52.77\00:02:55.80
Mario Bergoglio in Argentina
00:02:55.84\00:02:59.94
and especially in Buenos Aires,
00:02:59.97\00:03:02.61
where his bishopric was located,
00:03:02.64\00:03:06.78
he joined hands
with Pope John Paul II,
00:03:06.82\00:03:10.19
when Pope John was the Pope.
00:03:10.22\00:03:13.42
He joined hands with
him in making war against
00:03:13.46\00:03:16.62
not so much liberation theology,
00:03:16.66\00:03:18.96
but the communist
elements that had linked with it
00:03:18.99\00:03:21.86
due to the Jesuit influence
and so, in fact, so much so
00:03:21.90\00:03:27.17
that Pope Francis was
called to was subpoenaed,
00:03:27.20\00:03:31.27
before the
highest court in Argentina
00:03:31.31\00:03:34.84
for the-with a charge of...
00:03:34.88\00:03:36.48
Operation with
the military hunter?
00:03:36.51\00:03:37.85
With complexity
with a military hunter,
00:03:37.88\00:03:40.88
in the late 80', 1980's
00:03:40.92\00:03:43.05
and even the killing of
two Jesuit priests and...
00:03:43.08\00:03:46.65
He wasn't
accused to killing them,
00:03:46.69\00:03:48.02
but he pretty much...
00:03:48.06\00:03:49.39
Accused to be in compulsive
with the murders, yes.
00:03:49.42\00:03:52.79
Even when so far
as to pretty much turn
00:03:52.83\00:03:54.66
over to the authorities
or wash his hands of them.
00:03:54.70\00:03:57.47
Yes, and the
evidence that came out
00:03:57.50\00:03:59.63
obviously exonerated him,
that he'd actually helped them,
00:03:59.67\00:04:01.97
that he'd actually
helped Jesuit lay people and--
00:04:02.00\00:04:06.41
and those who were
involved in the military hunter
00:04:06.44\00:04:12.55
and so forth and so
here, here this Pope was not,
00:04:12.58\00:04:19.29
I mean, yes, he was a
Jesuit and yes, I'm sure he,
00:04:19.32\00:04:22.29
he appreciated, the
order and everything
00:04:22.32\00:04:25.33
but, in the end why did he
not as a the first Jesuit pope
00:04:25.36\00:04:31.00
take on a Jesuit
patron saints' name?
00:04:31.03\00:04:34.54
Like Xavier or Loyala, why not?
00:04:34.57\00:04:38.21
Think about that, I mean,
00:04:38.24\00:04:40.14
if you know anything
about Catholic orders,
00:04:40.18\00:04:42.14
whether it's a
Benedictine order,
00:04:42.18\00:04:44.88
whether it's the Jesuit order,
whether it's a Franciscan order
00:04:44.91\00:04:52.02
or the Dominican Order.
00:04:52.05\00:04:53.46
They're consulate
each other throats,
00:04:53.49\00:04:55.26
they're involved in
corruption scandals,
00:04:55.29\00:04:57.33
in court for murder.
00:04:57.36\00:04:58.69
I mean, they, I'm not
trying to create a conspiracy--
00:04:58.73\00:05:00.30
On occasion...
00:05:00.33\00:05:01.66
I'm not trying to
create a conspiracy,
00:05:01.70\00:05:03.13
but what I'm saying is they
don't like each other that well
00:05:03.16\00:05:06.50
and so for him to take
on the name of Pope Francis
00:05:06.53\00:05:09.97
after the Franciscan Order
to me, is very significant.
00:05:10.01\00:05:13.71
Well, yes, I'm sure it is,
00:05:13.74\00:05:16.08
'cause they choose those
names purely for symbolism.
00:05:16.11\00:05:20.22
But, how many other
Jesuits popes have there been.
00:05:20.25\00:05:24.05
Is this president?
00:05:24.09\00:05:25.55
Yes, it is the president.
00:05:25.59\00:05:26.92
And it sort of
odd in its own way
00:05:26.96\00:05:28.29
because The Jesuit
Order is the largest order.
00:05:28.32\00:05:31.03
Yes.
00:05:31.06\00:05:32.86
Although it's not one
of the longest standing,
00:05:32.89\00:05:34.33
it was only established by
00:05:34.36\00:05:35.96
Ignatius de
Loyola in the 1500's,
00:05:36.00\00:05:38.43
as a direct
response to the reformation
00:05:38.47\00:05:42.27
and they were
set-up, as shocked troops
00:05:42.30\00:05:44.34
if you for like the
papacy to defend the church
00:05:44.37\00:05:47.54
and to roll back
the reformation...
00:05:47.58\00:05:49.14
But the Jesuit
Order has no love...
00:05:49.18\00:05:51.15
They have no love
lost for this Pope,
00:05:51.18\00:05:53.62
really they
don't, they co-opt him
00:05:53.65\00:05:55.68
but they really
have no the love loss.
00:05:55.72\00:05:57.55
It is true that in
many of his theories
00:05:57.59\00:06:01.02
it comes very Jesuit
00:06:01.06\00:06:02.39
and especially when it
comes to the world economic,
00:06:02.42\00:06:06.06
he's very
socialist in his thinking,
00:06:06.09\00:06:08.66
The Jesuit Order with
very socialist for many year
00:06:08.70\00:06:12.47
and still is very
left leaning socialist,
00:06:12.50\00:06:16.84
and that was true
especially in a Latin America
00:06:16.87\00:06:20.14
with the
liberation theology movement.
00:06:20.18\00:06:22.78
Well, let me put
in a different way,
00:06:22.81\00:06:24.15
this is my take on it.
00:06:24.18\00:06:25.65
Back to the joke
"Is the Pope Catholic?"
00:06:25.68\00:06:28.32
I think we could
safely assume that
00:06:28.35\00:06:30.89
that this Pope is a
true believer in the Papacy.
00:06:30.92\00:06:33.12
Sure.
00:06:33.15\00:06:34.49
So, he's
dedicated to upholding it.
00:06:34.52\00:06:36.22
And I see him
bring Jesuit techniques
00:06:36.26\00:06:41.83
to bare to support the papacy
00:06:41.86\00:06:43.37
and what are
those techniques been?
00:06:43.40\00:06:45.17
Yes, in the early
days of the reformation...
00:06:45.20\00:06:47.24
Diversion.
00:06:47.27\00:06:48.60
They were as the,
yes, they got into that
00:06:48.64\00:06:50.61
but, initially it
was often quite violent
00:06:50.64\00:06:53.11
and direct, they could be
the inquisitives and so on.
00:06:53.14\00:06:56.61
But, it moved into an
intellectual diversions...
00:06:56.64\00:07:01.22
And arguments and persuasions
and subterfuge, it was really
00:07:01.25\00:07:06.35
calculating psychological
welfare of your life.
00:07:06.39\00:07:09.36
To appear to be one thing
but actually doing another.
00:07:09.39\00:07:11.96
So I do believe in that vain,
00:07:11.99\00:07:14.36
he's bringing the artifice
in The Jesuit Order to bare
00:07:14.40\00:07:18.17
where in the past we
probably had a few armatures
00:07:18.20\00:07:21.17
advancing the papacy.
00:07:21.20\00:07:22.54
I think this is a serious,
00:07:22.57\00:07:25.14
advancement of the
office of the papacy...
00:07:25.17\00:07:26.51
Well, he's definitely...
00:07:26.54\00:07:27.88
And it's their right,
but just it describing it.
00:07:27.91\00:07:29.78
I think that's what's going on.
00:07:29.81\00:07:31.55
The-they've pulled
out the main team now
00:07:31.58\00:07:34.95
to save the institution.
00:07:34.98\00:07:37.62
He's the most
skillful and charismatic Pope
00:07:37.65\00:07:39.65
I've seen in my life
time and even more so,
00:07:39.69\00:07:43.19
in fact I'd say, far more
so, than Pope John Paul the I.
00:07:43.22\00:07:48.30
I think it's significant
00:07:48.33\00:07:49.66
because this pope is
well loved by the recent pew
00:07:49.70\00:07:56.57
Paul said that in
the United States,
00:07:56.60\00:07:59.57
that 90% of the
Catholics in United States
00:07:59.61\00:08:01.84
support him to help both
conservatives and liberals.
00:08:01.88\00:08:05.65
More liberals and conservatives.
00:08:05.68\00:08:07.68
But, he's interesting
00:08:07.72\00:08:09.08
because he talks a liberal
welcoming inclusive talk.
00:08:09.12\00:08:15.12
Okay, on varying issues,
including even gay rights
00:08:15.16\00:08:19.56
and even gay
marriage but in the end...
00:08:19.59\00:08:21.93
Not changed any substance.
00:08:21.96\00:08:23.30
It doesn't change any substance,
00:08:23.33\00:08:24.67
that's correct and so
that's what interesting
00:08:24.70\00:08:27.20
and yet the
conservatives don't trust that.
00:08:27.24\00:08:29.87
They somehow, there's
this big battle in the curia
00:08:29.90\00:08:33.71
that's happening right now.
00:08:33.74\00:08:35.08
And I've often said this
00:08:35.11\00:08:36.44
talking to some of
their own church members,
00:08:36.48\00:08:38.51
that we need to understand
that there's a bit of a battle
00:08:38.55\00:08:41.18
still raging for the soul
of the Roman Catholic Church.
00:08:41.22\00:08:44.49
And that's on the
battleground of the Vatican Two
00:08:44.52\00:08:47.92
and I'm not really sure...
00:08:47.96\00:08:49.29
You mean, over Vatican Two, yes.
00:08:49.32\00:08:50.93
Yes. The battleground over...
00:08:50.96\00:08:52.29
Over Vatican Two and
the two previous popes
00:08:52.33\00:08:56.00
had something to
do with Vatican Two
00:08:56.03\00:08:57.87
but they came to reconsider it
00:08:57.90\00:09:00.07
and were reactionary
and more authoritarian.
00:09:00.10\00:09:03.67
I'm not really sure
where this man stands on that,
00:09:03.71\00:09:07.14
likely he's a
conservative for them too.
00:09:07.18\00:09:09.81
But, he's--
00:09:09.84\00:09:11.18
I would say he's not
like pro-Vatican Two.
00:09:11.21\00:09:13.01
But, I would say
he's beyond Vatican Two,
00:09:13.05\00:09:14.68
I would say that he's, as
my, as one of my professors
00:09:14.72\00:09:18.22
at Baylor university put it
on the study of the history,
00:09:18.25\00:09:22.12
the ecumenical councils cleared
00:09:22.16\00:09:23.49
from Nicaean
council the Vatican Two,
00:09:23.53\00:09:26.03
he's an expert
in it, he said that,
00:09:26.06\00:09:29.20
you know that in
the future the Rome,
00:09:29.23\00:09:32.33
the Catholic
Church seems to be moving
00:09:32.37\00:09:34.10
to some unfinished
business to a Vatican Three
00:09:34.14\00:09:38.34
and I wouldn't
be surprised that,
00:09:38.37\00:09:40.74
if that one the
legacies of Pope Francis
00:09:40.78\00:09:44.18
will be to
initiate a Vatican Three.
00:09:44.21\00:09:46.15
Yes, I agree with you, I
haven't read anything on it.
00:09:46.18\00:09:48.58
But, it just seems
like... I have, yeah.
00:09:48.62\00:09:50.52
I think that's
where it's all heading.
00:09:50.55\00:09:53.49
Now, Vatican Two had
some very good things
00:09:53.52\00:09:56.12
and for us, in
religious liberty.
00:09:56.16\00:09:58.33
It has a center point
to Dignitatis humanae,
00:09:58.36\00:10:02.00
which I think is, it
hasn't solved everything.
00:10:02.03\00:10:05.00
No, but, it's the first
time that the Catholic Church
00:10:05.03\00:10:06.57
actually promoted
00:10:06.60\00:10:07.94
and recognized the
free exercise of...
00:10:07.97\00:10:09.30
Right.
00:10:09.34\00:10:10.67
And as Cardinal
Dolan said a few years ago
00:10:10.71\00:10:12.74
and I heard him speak
and he was very honest
00:10:12.77\00:10:15.28
in front of Catholic audience.
00:10:15.31\00:10:16.64
He hesitated in
his speech and he said,
00:10:16.68\00:10:18.88
"You know Roman Catholics
would not once have spoken
00:10:18.91\00:10:21.85
this way about
religious liberty."
00:10:21.88\00:10:23.28
He says "we once held,
that era has no rights."
00:10:23.32\00:10:26.45
Yes.
00:10:26.49\00:10:27.82
Now, that's where they came from
00:10:27.86\00:10:29.19
and that's back to
one of other discussions,
00:10:29.22\00:10:30.79
that's really where Islam
00:10:30.83\00:10:32.93
fortunately
resides at the moment.
00:10:32.96\00:10:34.40
And that's where
the Christian right is,
00:10:34.43\00:10:35.80
because
essentially when you look at
00:10:35.83\00:10:38.07
Dignitatis humanae
which you're talking about
00:10:38.10\00:10:40.30
terms of the Catholic Churches,
00:10:40.34\00:10:42.30
recognition of free
exercise of the religion.
00:10:42.34\00:10:44.14
That's as far as they
go, like the Christian right,
00:10:44.17\00:10:46.88
that's as far as they go.
00:10:46.91\00:10:48.24
The Christian, I mean,
the Southern Baptist church
00:10:48.28\00:10:50.55
and many other
churches once believed
00:10:50.58\00:10:52.31
in the Constitutional
Separation of church and state.
00:10:52.35\00:10:54.88
The Catholic Church
has never bowed the need
00:10:54.92\00:10:57.22
to the Constitutional
Separation of church and state.
00:10:57.25\00:10:59.62
They have acknowledged
00:10:59.65\00:11:00.99
the free
exercise of the religion
00:11:01.02\00:11:02.36
but never the
Constitutional Separation
00:11:02.39\00:11:03.73
of church and state.
00:11:03.76\00:11:05.69
Well, talking about subterfuge,
00:11:05.73\00:11:07.23
I think, they've tried to
have their cake and eat it too.
00:11:07.26\00:11:10.23
I read Roman Catholic websites
00:11:10.27\00:11:12.73
and they say
wonderful things about
00:11:12.77\00:11:14.30
Separation of church and state.
00:11:14.34\00:11:15.67
They say, they are for it
00:11:15.70\00:11:17.04
but, they define
it differently...
00:11:17.07\00:11:18.67
By only protecting
their own institutions.
00:11:18.71\00:11:20.34
Right, they want it separate
00:11:20.38\00:11:22.14
and then they define
it under Subsidiarity.
00:11:22.18\00:11:25.51
There are separate but
the state is subsidiary
00:11:25.55\00:11:28.18
to the authority of the church.
00:11:28.22\00:11:29.55
Of the church...
00:11:29.58\00:11:30.92
So, that's
separate and yet not equal.
00:11:30.95\00:11:32.72
Yes, that's correct
00:11:32.75\00:11:34.69
And, that's a
stand off as long as,
00:11:34.72\00:11:37.79
Dignitatis humanae
and Vatican Two holds.
00:11:37.83\00:11:41.43
When that's out of the
equation then it's back.
00:11:41.46\00:11:43.73
See, constitutional
Separation of church and state
00:11:43.77\00:11:45.80
creates and
equality of the guarantee
00:11:45.83\00:11:48.00
of religious
freedom for all faiths.
00:11:48.04\00:11:50.57
Where as the
catholic church always wants
00:11:50.61\00:11:52.47
to view itself as the superior.
00:11:52.51\00:11:54.44
Yeah, and, you know, I know,
00:11:54.48\00:11:56.28
that's their right to
think that way, I mean...
00:11:56.31\00:11:58.51
Even in some
smaller churches like
00:11:58.55\00:12:00.18
the Seventh-Day
Adventist Church,
00:12:00.22\00:12:01.55
we sometimes think
that's we are superior.
00:12:01.58\00:12:02.92
That's true
00:12:02.95\00:12:04.29
We forget the Jesus says,
00:12:04.32\00:12:05.65
"Other sheep have I
not of this pasture."
00:12:05.69\00:12:07.09
Yes, that's true.
00:12:07.12\00:12:08.52
And, so God, you
know, the Spirit works
00:12:08.56\00:12:11.16
with whom He will.
00:12:11.19\00:12:12.53
I would say
that's dying out though,
00:12:12.56\00:12:14.80
generational-- church, yeah.
00:12:14.83\00:12:17.60
And now, we're going to
the other extreme towards
00:12:17.63\00:12:20.67
being like the rest of
the evangelic church down--
00:12:20.70\00:12:22.30
Oh, no, we need to have
the sense of a special charter,
00:12:22.34\00:12:26.88
when have a
high and holy calling
00:12:26.91\00:12:28.44
and that, what
we believe is true.
00:12:28.48\00:12:30.18
But it's very dangerous
for anyone in any religion.
00:12:30.21\00:12:33.95
But, particularly in
Christianity to think,
00:12:33.98\00:12:35.82
"I am only right
one and you're all
00:12:35.85\00:12:38.05
heretics in danger of your soul"
00:12:38.09\00:12:40.29
Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:40.32\00:12:41.89
Back to the issue
of the Jesuit order.
00:12:41.92\00:12:45.23
You know, it's interesting
that the Jesuit order
00:12:45.26\00:12:48.26
was pretty much
supplanted back in 1984.
00:12:48.30\00:12:50.80
There was this big ceremony
00:12:50.83\00:12:52.50
by Pope John Paul the
second at St Peter's basilica.
00:12:52.53\00:12:57.77
Ordaining and a secret order,
00:12:57.81\00:13:00.58
Opus Dei, for the first time,
00:13:00.61\00:13:02.14
brought it out of
a secret order status
00:13:02.18\00:13:04.31
to a
full-fledged Catholic order.
00:13:04.35\00:13:06.41
And a certain movie
brought that to attention.
00:13:06.45\00:13:08.22
We better take a
break for a few minutes
00:13:08.25\00:13:09.92
and come back and
continue this discussion.
00:13:09.95\00:13:12.99