Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Greg Hamilton
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000279B
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00:03 Welcome back to the "Liberty Insider."
00:05 Before the break with guest Greg Hamilton 00:08 we were talking about just war theory. 00:10 How it began and how it's been played out 00:12 even in this 21st century? 00:16 You know many ways we think we'd be on the middle ages 00:18 and all the church state constructs that form the-- 00:23 at one point the Holy Roman Empire 00:25 but I think not. 00:26 Its sort of coming back to haunt us. 00:28 And I'd brought up and you discuss 00:30 a little bit strange sort of a concurrence 00:33 between just war theory as the Roman Catholic Church 00:36 is the dominant Christian entity 00:38 during the Middle Ages enunciated. 00:40 I think in the self serving way myself. 00:43 There's a strange juxtaposition between that 00:46 and what we're seeing resurgent again 00:49 with Islam with their Jihad and-- 00:52 they almost use the same term. 00:54 Yeah, a just war against the infidel. 00:56 Yeah, and not only that but to clean up 00:59 what they believe is moderate infidel-- 01:02 infidelism however you want to say, 01:04 within their own midst which causes them 01:06 to fight and war with each other, 01:07 which is interesting. 01:09 Which of course we had in Europe in the middle ages. 01:11 Yes, and the Donatus controversy-- 01:12 And then I seen the Christian was. 01:14 The Donatus controversy in North Africa 01:16 involved Christians who disagreed 01:21 with Roman Catholic churches view the trinity 01:23 and held to Arian view of the nature of Christ. 01:27 And of course the Donatus believed that 01:29 they were following the purest teachings 01:32 of the first Christian church and that Rome had apostatized. 01:35 So St. Augustine was recommending, 01:37 okay, use a shepherd like means to bring them along 01:41 and get them reconverted and bring them around. 01:44 And if that doesn't work 01:45 then the sword of the state must go in 01:47 and take care of business. 01:48 Which means persecution, bloodshed and death, 01:52 martyrdom so to speak. 01:54 But, at least according to the Donatus 01:56 but Rome was basically following through with its own. 02:02 How should I put it, internal cleansing 02:04 and you see the same thing 02:05 happening with the Islamic world. 02:07 But right now you see alliances forming 02:10 between Rome, the Pope Francis, the Sunni nations, 02:15 Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, Jordon, 02:18 Gulf states and so on, against the Shia led Iran 02:24 and also the insurgence in Yemen 02:27 and also the insurgence in Iraq. 02:29 I think these are alliances to use your word, 02:33 they're not true alliances. 02:34 I think these are pasturings in the geopolitical give 02:38 and take of an out of control world. 02:41 I'm not so sure that there's any real concurrence 02:44 as yet between any element of Islam and Christianity, 02:48 little on the Roman Catholic Church. 02:50 But since the Roman Catholic Church acts 02:53 as a state and has diplomats 02:55 and is involved in these different things, 02:57 they're showing their hand, which you're speaking of 02:59 and they're tilting toward one Islamic power or another. 03:05 But as we were even saying during the break, 03:08 it's a little muddy because the ISIL 03:11 is actually Sunni, Saudi Arabia 03:14 that we marked more favorable to, is also Sunni. 03:17 But they're not one and the same 03:18 even though curiously Saudi Arabia 03:20 has its fingerprints all over ISIL. 03:22 Oh, sure, sure. 03:24 I remember Prince Bandar lost his job in the aftermath 03:27 because it had gotten out of control 03:29 and was suddenly an embarrassment to them, 03:30 but they started it. 03:32 But Saudi Arabia along with the other Sunni nations, 03:34 view ISIS as being an out-of-control 03:38 extreme group that must be taken care of 03:41 and we made an example of for the sake of "world peace," 03:47 and their alliance I mean the Arab leagues alliance 03:51 with Rome seems very evident, with the west, 03:54 with United States, against Shia led Iran. 03:57 They will not do business. 03:59 In fact, I read an associate report-- 04:01 Press report once back in the bombings in-- 04:04 Was it 2008 or 2006 of Israel bombing Gaza 04:09 in the first big war there 04:12 and the King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia said, hey, 04:15 we can do business with Israel 04:17 but we will never do business with Shia led Muslim Iran. 04:22 Because they view them as apostates 04:24 and they view them as does the Shia, 04:28 who believe they're from the direct descent-- 04:30 Direct descendants of Mohammad through blood line. 04:32 But its worth remembering that the Shia-Sunni debate 04:35 is not a theology as the succession. 04:38 You're right, Lincoln. Absolutely it is succession. 04:41 Its not about theology. 04:44 In fact, when you look at Mohammad 04:49 and you look at what he tried to achieve 04:53 it was basically a vision of spiritualism 04:59 or a spiritual relationship with Allah 05:02 and it was also a construct that the only way 05:06 that Islam could advance is really through war. 05:11 Well, Islam means submission. 05:13 Yeah. Not peace. 05:14 Right. 05:15 And so it was to cause all the false religions 05:18 or the falsify true religion, 05:21 because they accepted that 05:22 Judaism and Christianity were close. 05:24 But they were divergent enough 05:25 they need to come to the one, Allah. 05:28 And so it was, it was at first baptization 05:31 but it's out failed coalition. 05:33 So its by nature an expansionary, 05:36 even violent, calling. 05:38 The most influential group in Islamic thinking 05:45 occurred in the 19th century with Wahhabism 05:48 and from there it was basically an attempt, 05:50 a movement to purify Islam with from within. 05:55 And to deal with any apostates, apostates within their midst, 06:01 I mean, it was so bad that they developed a philosophy 06:03 that unless you reformed the friend of your friend, 06:09 we would hold all accountable and they must all die. 06:12 Its really egregious and its especially aimed 06:15 at the Shiates in Iran. 06:17 It's a very dark vision of Islam 06:19 and when I cast about in the Christian world 06:22 or at least the United States religious scene, 06:25 the only parallel I can find 06:27 are the Christian Reconstructionist. 06:29 Yes. 06:30 They have an equally dark vision 06:31 of cleansing the religious landscape. 06:34 Started by R. J. Rushdoony. 06:35 In fact even the Christian 06:36 right in the United States holds. 06:38 Sees them as the ultimate extremists 06:41 and refuse to be associated with them. 06:43 That's interesting. Right. 06:44 And within the greater Islamic world, 06:46 Wahhabism is still relatively marginalized. 06:50 But its influencing the whole scene 06:53 and similarly I still hold that the Rushdoony theory 06:58 is its translated into dominionism 07:01 and as we said earlier 07:02 then this Middle East mindset of a lot of Christian 07:06 fundamentalists in United States. 07:07 You have this dark extremist vision of Christianity 07:11 working its way up through geopolitical actions. 07:14 There is an article in The Atlantic by Graeme Wood, 07:17 just this last year. 07:19 I believe it was in December of last year and-- 07:21 or January this year. 07:23 And he talked about how ISIL or ISIS 07:27 really does believe in this whole apocalyptic vision 07:31 that they are the ones to bring about the coming of Allah 07:36 and even if Jesus Christ, the Mahdi to come 07:39 and cleanse the world of sinners 07:42 and everything and they are the-- 07:44 they are sent by Allah to do that. 07:47 And that there only be so many thousand of them left 07:49 and that Allah would come and rescue them 07:52 and establish Allah's kingdom on earth for a thousand years. 07:54 They really believe that. 07:56 In other words, its not just a political movement. 07:57 What's interesting is, I attend the Annual Council 08:00 on Foreign Relations Summit on religion and foreign policy 08:03 on Madison Avenue in New York City 08:05 and what's interesting is, they keep saying 08:08 and I think the United States is very naive this way 08:10 that its strictly a political movement, 08:12 that ISIS is strictly a political movement, 08:13 the most extreme groups 08:15 are strictly a political movement 08:16 and I keep saying, 08:18 then why are we having this conference? 08:19 Its all about their theological views. 08:21 It's all about their eschatology. 08:23 So they do have an agenda, a religious agenda. 08:27 I've got a book review coming up 08:28 in Liberty Magazine on a book that I read 08:30 and then passed on to Review. 08:32 And I forget the title but its on the assumption 08:35 that the three main religions 08:37 Judaism, Christianity and Islam, 08:40 each have a certain apocalyptic scenario, 08:44 you know, they've every right to hold it, 08:46 but given the way that, that structured 08:49 is a certain concurrence where they are all working 08:51 toward a vanishing point at the same time 08:54 and you know this, this scenario 08:55 has become self-fulfilling 08:57 and the subtext of this book was, 08:59 how the three major religions 09:00 are bringing us toward the apocalypse. 09:03 Yes, and what's interesting is, 09:06 Rome and Pope Francis has some more views. 09:10 We're gonna talk about-- 09:12 We need to talk about that in a whole lot of-- 09:14 In another program. A whole program. 09:15 But Pope Francis eschatology, he believes that 09:18 the universal church of Christ, Rome 09:21 and all the ecumenical religions 09:23 that joined with him are meant to make war against secularism 09:26 as secularism is the ultimate threat. 09:28 When in fact we know from Ellen White-- 09:30 It was Benedict that was his hobby horse, 09:33 the secularism was the main enemy. 09:34 We know, we know from Ellen White 09:36 and also from Revelation 13 and Revelation 17-- 09:39 Ellen White a visionary writer in early Adventism. 09:42 Yes, Ellen White referred to that the great battle, 09:45 the final battle is really between Christian extremists 09:50 who seem to take hold of government against heretics, 09:55 those who they view as troublers of the peace 09:58 and troublers of the nation, that's the final scenario, 10:02 because they refuse to recognize the Creator 10:04 and the Creator of the Sabbath. 10:07 So that viewpoint parallels 10:10 what we're saying in the Islamic world 10:12 and the bible says it, you know that the nations are angry. 10:16 The social commentators say, 10:18 we're in a second time of revolution, 10:21 revolutionary fever. 10:22 So its clearly, every thing's at play 10:25 and is always when things will play 10:27 religion is the game to watch, right. 10:29 Oh, absolutely, absolutely. 10:30 And I think that we're witnessing things that 10:34 we'd never seen before. 10:36 Richard Haass of the Council on Foreign Relations 10:38 in New York City, I'll never forget, 10:39 we had a two hour session. 10:41 He just did a one hour monologue 10:43 of what he saw is happening in the world. 10:44 He says, the state department, cleared the president, 10:48 they have never seen anything like this, 10:49 even past presidents. 10:51 Congress has never seen anything like this. 10:52 That the things are happening in the world today, 10:54 with all the different skirmishes and wars 10:56 from Ukraine to the Middle East 11:00 and elsewhere is just they, 11:03 they're at a loss on how to deal with this. 11:04 I heard the comment the other day, 11:06 they seduce leaders some hotspots, 11:07 but they said, at the moment, the whole border is lit up. 11:10 Well, yeah, the whole border is lit up 11:11 and Richard Haass, 11:12 the President of the Council on Foreign Relations said, 11:14 hey, we are in a state of shock. 11:17 We are dumbfounded. We don't know what to do. 11:19 We don't have the answers. 11:20 We have never confronted this type of extremism 11:24 although we did with Nazism, but this-- 11:26 Nazism wasn't so much a theology behind it 11:29 or an eschatology 11:31 where as ISIS has eschatology through it, 11:34 through and through and it lines up for a crusade. 11:38 And so it lines up for a restoration 11:40 of this whole just war theory led by the Catholic Church 11:44 of which the western powers, 11:46 especially the United States is mere dupes. 11:51 Let me throw, not a wrench in, 11:53 in what you just said, but a spin may be. 11:57 Its seems to me that with the US invasion of Iraq 12:00 and the over-reaction that accompany 12:03 that because of 9/11. 12:04 Right. 12:06 We threw the Geneva Convention out the window. 12:10 I know there was some public statements-- 12:11 Especially when it comes to torture. 12:13 Yes. Yes. 12:15 Where the Geneva Convention, 12:17 which is a very relatively recent origin, 12:20 I think, was a secular restatement 12:23 in some ways of the long term just war theory. 12:28 But we threw that out and we're in desperate 12:31 need of a new paradigm and I think, 12:34 and I think you'll agree with this, 12:35 that now with the interjection of Pope Francis 12:37 and his taking the lead, that's being handed off 12:40 the traditional just war theory is being handed off, 12:43 increasingly to United States. 12:45 The new world paradigm 12:46 is really an old world paradigm. 12:47 Yes. Yeah, and-- 12:49 But there's no question that the Geneva Convention 12:51 became totally ruined in the bridge. 12:55 Its funny you should bring-- mention it, 12:56 because in Samuel Huntington's Pulitzer Prize winning 12:59 "Clash of Civilizations," are making a world order-- 13:02 I have a lot of time for what you read. 13:04 He basically said that 13:08 we're seeing a clash of civilizations 13:10 between Christianity in the west 13:13 and Islam in the east. 13:14 And clearly that spells more trouble as we go forward. 13:20 We don't have all the answers as Christians, 13:22 Jesus does and so does the Bible. 13:26 At the beginning of the first Gulf war, 13:28 president, now president, Obama gave a speech in Chicago. 13:33 In that speech he said, "I'm not against war, 13:36 I'm against foolish wars." 13:39 And it's worth remembering that in our rights 13:40 it's the spirit of war is steering the nations. 13:44 The bible says that the nations are preparing for war. 13:47 That they will turn their plowshares back into swords 13:51 and the spirit of war is indeed steering. 13:55 But to put into that mix, an old doctrine 13:57 that was formulated at the time 13:59 of a literally militant Christian church, 14:02 an old doctrine just defying the use of violent force. 14:07 I think is to mix things up and create a dynamic 14:11 that cannot bring peace and harmony, 14:15 cannot bring true godliness 14:17 and can only bring bloodshed, can only bring strife. 14:21 It can only bring a breakup of nations, 14:24 peoples, families and indeed the very psyche 14:27 that should make up a true Christian. 14:29 It is well known that all of those 14:31 that participate in war, even a war of defense, 14:34 are corrupted and confused in their minds 14:37 by the horrors that they see. 14:40 Just war is just war. 14:43 It's not correct, its an excuse 14:46 and we must not allow this old doctrine 14:49 to drive our actions 14:51 even in the circled Christian west. 14:54 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-09-03