Welcome back to
the "Liberty Insider."
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Before the break
with guest Greg Hamilton
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we were talking
about just war theory.
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How it began and
how it's been played out
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even in this 21st century?
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You know many ways we
think we'd be on the middle ages
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and all the church state
constructs that form the--
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at one point the
Holy Roman Empire
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but I think not.
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Its sort of
coming back to haunt us.
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And I'd brought
up and you discuss
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a little bit strange
sort of a concurrence
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between just war theory
as the Roman Catholic Church
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is the dominant Christian entity
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during the
Middle Ages enunciated.
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I think in the
self serving way myself.
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There's a strange
juxtaposition between that
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and what we're
seeing resurgent again
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with Islam with
their Jihad and--
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they almost use the same term.
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Yeah, a just war
against the infidel.
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Yeah, and not only
that but to clean up
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what they believe
is moderate infidel--
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infidelism
however you want to say,
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within their own
midst which causes them
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to fight and
war with each other,
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which is interesting.
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Which of course we had in
Europe in the middle ages.
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Yes, and the
Donatus controversy--
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And then I seen
the Christian was.
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The Donatus
controversy in North Africa
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involved
Christians who disagreed
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with Roman Catholic
churches view the trinity
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and held to Arian view
of the nature of Christ.
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And of course the
Donatus believed that
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they were following
the purest teachings
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of the first Christian church
and that Rome had apostatized.
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So St. Augustine
was recommending,
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okay, use a shepherd
like means to bring them along
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and get them reconverted
and bring them around.
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And if that doesn't work
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then the sword of
the state must go in
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and take care of business.
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Which means persecution,
bloodshed and death,
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martyrdom so to speak.
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But, at least
according to the Donatus
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but Rome was basically
following through with its own.
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How should I put
it, internal cleansing
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and you see the same thing
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happening with
the Islamic world.
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But right now you
see alliances forming
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between Rome, the Pope
Francis, the Sunni nations,
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Saudi Arabia,
Egypt, Turkey, Jordon,
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Gulf states and so on,
against the Shia led Iran
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and also the insurgence in Yemen
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and also the insurgence in Iraq.
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I think these are
alliances to use your word,
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they're not true alliances.
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I think these are pasturings
in the geopolitical give
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and take of an
out of control world.
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I'm not so sure that
there's any real concurrence
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as yet between any element
of Islam and Christianity,
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little on the
Roman Catholic Church.
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But since the Roman
Catholic Church acts
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as a state and has diplomats
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and is involved in
these different things,
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they're showing their
hand, which you're speaking of
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and they're tilting toward
one Islamic power or another.
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But as we were even
saying during the break,
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it's a little
muddy because the ISIL
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is actually Sunni, Saudi Arabia
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that we marked more
favorable to, is also Sunni.
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But they're not one and the same
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even though
curiously Saudi Arabia
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has its
fingerprints all over ISIL.
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Oh, sure, sure.
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I remember Prince Bandar
lost his job in the aftermath
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because it had
gotten out of control
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and was suddenly an
embarrassment to them,
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but they started it.
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But Saudi Arabia along
with the other Sunni nations,
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view ISIS as
being an out-of-control
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extreme group that
must be taken care of
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and we made an example of
for the sake of "world peace,"
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and their alliance I
mean the Arab leagues alliance
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with Rome seems very
evident, with the west,
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with United States,
against Shia led Iran.
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They will not do business.
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In fact, I read
an associate report--
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Press report once
back in the bombings in--
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Was it 2008 or 2006
of Israel bombing Gaza
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in the first big war there
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and the King Abdullah
of Saudi Arabia said, hey,
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we can do business with Israel
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but we will never do business
with Shia led Muslim Iran.
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Because they
view them as apostates
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and they view
them as does the Shia,
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who believe they're
from the direct descent--
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Direct descendants of
Mohammad through blood line.
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But its worth remembering
that the Shia-Sunni debate
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is not a theology
as the succession.
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You're right, Lincoln.
Absolutely it is succession.
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Its not about theology.
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In fact, when
you look at Mohammad
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and you look at
what he tried to achieve
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it was basically a
vision of spiritualism
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or a spiritual
relationship with Allah
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and it was also a
construct that the only way
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that Islam could
advance is really through war.
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Well, Islam means submission.
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Yeah. Not peace.
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Right.
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And so it was to cause
all the false religions
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or the falsify true religion,
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because they accepted that
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Judaism and
Christianity were close.
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But they were divergent enough
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they need to come
to the one, Allah.
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And so it was, it
was at first baptization
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but it's out failed coalition.
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So its by
nature an expansionary,
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even violent, calling.
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The most influential
group in Islamic thinking
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occurred in the 19th
century with Wahhabism
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and from there it
was basically an attempt,
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a movement to purify
Islam with from within.
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And to deal with any apostates,
apostates within their midst,
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I mean, it was so bad that
they developed a philosophy
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that unless you reformed
the friend of your friend,
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we would hold all accountable
and they must all die.
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Its really egregious
and its especially aimed
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at the Shiates in Iran.
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It's a very dark vision of Islam
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and when I cast about
in the Christian world
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or at least the United
States religious scene,
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the only parallel I can find
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are the Christian
Reconstructionist.
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Yes.
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They have an equally dark vision
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of cleansing the
religious landscape.
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Started by R. J. Rushdoony.
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In fact even the Christian
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right in the
United States holds.
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Sees them as the
ultimate extremists
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and refuse to be
associated with them.
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That's interesting. Right.
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And within the
greater Islamic world,
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Wahhabism is still
relatively marginalized.
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But its
influencing the whole scene
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and similarly I still
hold that the Rushdoony theory
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is its
translated into dominionism
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and as we said earlier
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then this Middle East
mindset of a lot of Christian
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fundamentalists
in United States.
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You have this dark
extremist vision of Christianity
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working its way up
through geopolitical actions.
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There is an article in
The Atlantic by Graeme Wood,
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just this last year.
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I believe it was in
December of last year and--
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or January this year.
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And he talked
about how ISIL or ISIS
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really does believe in
this whole apocalyptic vision
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that they are the ones to
bring about the coming of Allah
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and even if Jesus
Christ, the Mahdi to come
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and cleanse the world of sinners
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and everything
and they are the--
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they are sent by
Allah to do that.
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And that there only be so
many thousand of them left
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and that Allah
would come and rescue them
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and establish Allah's kingdom
on earth for a thousand years.
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They really believe that.
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In other words, its not
just a political movement.
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What's interesting is, I
attend the Annual Council
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on Foreign Relations Summit
on religion and foreign policy
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on Madison
Avenue in New York City
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and what's
interesting is, they keep saying
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and I think the United
States is very naive this way
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that its strictly
a political movement,
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that ISIS is
strictly a political movement,
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the most extreme groups
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are strictly a
political movement
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and I keep saying,
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then why are we
having this conference?
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Its all about
their theological views.
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It's all about
their eschatology.
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So they do have an
agenda, a religious agenda.
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I've got a book review coming up
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in Liberty Magazine
on a book that I read
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and then passed on to Review.
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And I forget the title
but its on the assumption
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that the three main religions
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Judaism, Christianity and Islam,
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each have a certain
apocalyptic scenario,
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you know, they've
every right to hold it,
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but given the way
that, that structured
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is a certain concurrence
where they are all working
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toward a vanishing
point at the same time
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and you know this, this scenario
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has become self-fulfilling
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and the subtext
of this book was,
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how the three major religions
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are bringing us
toward the apocalypse.
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Yes, and what's interesting is,
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Rome and Pope
Francis has some more views.
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We're gonna talk about--
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We need to talk about
that in a whole lot of--
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In another
program. A whole program.
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But Pope Francis
eschatology, he believes that
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the universal
church of Christ, Rome
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and all the ecumenical religions
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that joined with him are meant
to make war against secularism
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as secularism is
the ultimate threat.
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When in fact we
know from Ellen White--
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It was Benedict
that was his hobby horse,
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the secularism
was the main enemy.
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We know, we
know from Ellen White
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and also from Revelation
13 and Revelation 17--
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Ellen White a visionary
writer in early Adventism.
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Yes, Ellen White referred
to that the great battle,
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the final battle is really
between Christian extremists
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who seem to take hold of
government against heretics,
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those who they view
as troublers of the peace
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and troublers of the nation,
that's the final scenario,
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because they refuse
to recognize the Creator
00:10:02.20\00:10:04.73
and the Creator of the Sabbath.
00:10:04.77\00:10:07.20
So that viewpoint parallels
00:10:07.24\00:10:10.01
what we're saying
in the Islamic world
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and the bible says it, you
know that the nations are angry.
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The social commentators say,
00:10:16.58\00:10:18.41
we're in a second
time of revolution,
00:10:18.45\00:10:21.22
revolutionary fever.
00:10:21.25\00:10:22.95
So its clearly,
every thing's at play
00:10:22.98\00:10:25.35
and is always
when things will play
00:10:25.39\00:10:27.42
religion is the
game to watch, right.
00:10:27.46\00:10:29.19
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
00:10:29.22\00:10:30.89
And I think that
we're witnessing things that
00:10:30.93\00:10:34.83
we'd never seen before.
00:10:34.86\00:10:36.20
Richard Haass of the
Council on Foreign Relations
00:10:36.23\00:10:38.47
in New York City,
I'll never forget,
00:10:38.50\00:10:39.93
we had a two hour session.
00:10:39.97\00:10:41.47
He just did a one hour monologue
00:10:41.50\00:10:43.17
of what he saw is
happening in the world.
00:10:43.20\00:10:44.54
He says, the state department,
cleared the president,
00:10:44.57\00:10:47.98
they have never
seen anything like this,
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even past presidents.
00:10:49.54\00:10:51.01
Congress has never
seen anything like this.
00:10:51.05\00:10:52.51
That the things are
happening in the world today,
00:10:52.55\00:10:54.65
with all the
different skirmishes and wars
00:10:54.68\00:10:56.62
from Ukraine to the Middle East
00:10:56.65\00:11:00.09
and elsewhere is just they,
00:11:00.12\00:11:03.02
they're at a loss on
how to deal with this.
00:11:03.06\00:11:04.79
I heard the
comment the other day,
00:11:04.83\00:11:06.16
they seduce
leaders some hotspots,
00:11:06.19\00:11:07.66
but they said, at the moment,
the whole border is lit up.
00:11:07.70\00:11:10.13
Well, yeah, the
whole border is lit up
00:11:10.17\00:11:11.50
and Richard Haass,
00:11:11.53\00:11:12.87
the President of the Council
on Foreign Relations said,
00:11:12.90\00:11:14.90
hey, we are in a state of shock.
00:11:14.94\00:11:17.37
We are dumbfounded.
We don't know what to do.
00:11:17.41\00:11:19.44
We don't have the answers.
00:11:19.47\00:11:20.81
We have never confronted
this type of extremism
00:11:20.84\00:11:24.51
although we did
with Nazism, but this--
00:11:24.55\00:11:26.95
Nazism wasn't so
much a theology behind it
00:11:26.98\00:11:29.88
or an eschatology
00:11:29.92\00:11:31.69
where as ISIS has
eschatology through it,
00:11:31.72\00:11:34.92
through and through and
it lines up for a crusade.
00:11:34.96\00:11:38.26
And so it lines
up for a restoration
00:11:38.29\00:11:40.80
of this whole just war theory
led by the Catholic Church
00:11:40.83\00:11:44.83
of which the western powers,
00:11:44.87\00:11:46.60
especially the
United States is mere dupes.
00:11:46.63\00:11:51.14
Let me throw, not a wrench in,
00:11:51.17\00:11:53.27
in what you just
said, but a spin may be.
00:11:53.31\00:11:57.08
Its seems to me that
with the US invasion of Iraq
00:11:57.11\00:12:00.78
and the
over-reaction that accompany
00:12:00.82\00:12:03.49
that because of 9/11.
00:12:03.52\00:12:04.85
Right.
00:12:04.89\00:12:06.22
We threw the Geneva
Convention out the window.
00:12:06.25\00:12:10.33
I know there was
some public statements--
00:12:10.36\00:12:11.96
Especially when
it comes to torture.
00:12:11.99\00:12:13.56
Yes. Yes.
00:12:13.60\00:12:15.16
Where the Geneva Convention,
00:12:15.20\00:12:17.53
which is a very
relatively recent origin,
00:12:17.57\00:12:20.10
I think, was a
secular restatement
00:12:20.14\00:12:23.74
in some ways of the
long term just war theory.
00:12:23.77\00:12:28.11
But we threw that out
and we're in desperate
00:12:28.14\00:12:31.15
need of a new
paradigm and I think,
00:12:31.18\00:12:34.12
and I think
you'll agree with this,
00:12:34.15\00:12:35.65
that now with the
interjection of Pope Francis
00:12:35.68\00:12:37.89
and his taking the
lead, that's being handed off
00:12:37.92\00:12:40.76
the traditional just war
theory is being handed off,
00:12:40.79\00:12:43.83
increasingly to United States.
00:12:43.86\00:12:45.19
The new world paradigm
00:12:45.23\00:12:46.56
is really an old world paradigm.
00:12:46.59\00:12:47.93
Yes. Yeah, and--
00:12:47.96\00:12:49.30
But there's no question
that the Geneva Convention
00:12:49.33\00:12:51.63
became totally
ruined in the bridge.
00:12:51.67\00:12:55.34
Its funny you
should bring-- mention it,
00:12:55.37\00:12:56.71
because in Samuel Huntington's
Pulitzer Prize winning
00:12:56.74\00:12:59.91
"Clash of Civilizations,"
are making a world order--
00:12:59.94\00:13:02.61
I have a lot of
time for what you read.
00:13:02.64\00:13:04.11
He basically said that
00:13:04.15\00:13:08.18
we're seeing a
clash of civilizations
00:13:08.22\00:13:10.15
between Christianity in the west
00:13:10.19\00:13:13.56
and Islam in the east.
00:13:13.59\00:13:14.92
And clearly that spells
more trouble as we go forward.
00:13:14.96\00:13:20.23
We don't have all the
answers as Christians,
00:13:20.26\00:13:22.30
Jesus does and
so does the Bible.
00:13:22.33\00:13:26.13
At the beginning
of the first Gulf war,
00:13:26.17\00:13:28.80
president, now president,
Obama gave a speech in Chicago.
00:13:28.84\00:13:33.71
In that speech he
said, "I'm not against war,
00:13:33.74\00:13:36.54
I'm against foolish wars."
00:13:36.58\00:13:39.01
And it's worth
remembering that in our rights
00:13:39.05\00:13:40.78
it's the spirit of war
is steering the nations.
00:13:40.82\00:13:44.09
The bible says that the
nations are preparing for war.
00:13:44.12\00:13:47.86
That they will turn their
plowshares back into swords
00:13:47.89\00:13:51.76
and the spirit of
war is indeed steering.
00:13:51.79\00:13:55.16
But to put into
that mix, an old doctrine
00:13:55.20\00:13:57.93
that was formulated at the time
00:13:57.97\00:13:59.47
of a literally
militant Christian church,
00:13:59.50\00:14:02.54
an old doctrine just defying
the use of violent force.
00:14:02.57\00:14:07.14
I think is to mix
things up and create a dynamic
00:14:07.18\00:14:11.85
that cannot bring
peace and harmony,
00:14:11.88\00:14:15.25
cannot bring true godliness
00:14:15.28\00:14:17.25
and can only bring bloodshed,
can only bring strife.
00:14:17.29\00:14:21.12
It can only bring
a breakup of nations,
00:14:21.16\00:14:24.03
peoples, families and
indeed the very psyche
00:14:24.06\00:14:27.50
that should make
up a true Christian.
00:14:27.53\00:14:29.90
It is well known
that all of those
00:14:29.93\00:14:31.77
that participate in
war, even a war of defense,
00:14:31.80\00:14:34.84
are corrupted and
confused in their minds
00:14:34.87\00:14:37.84
by the horrors that they see.
00:14:37.87\00:14:40.04
Just war is just war.
00:14:40.08\00:14:43.38
It's not correct, its an excuse
00:14:43.41\00:14:46.65
and we must not
allow this old doctrine
00:14:46.68\00:14:49.92
to drive our actions
00:14:49.95\00:14:51.82
even in the
circled Christian west.
00:14:51.85\00:14:54.79
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:14:54.82\00:14:58.06