Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Greg Hamilton
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000279A
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00:18 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:19 This is the program brining you discussion, 00:22 news, views and up-to-date information 00:24 on religious liberty events around the world. 00:27 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:31 And my guest on this program, well, my friend Greg Hamilton. 00:35 President of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association 00:37 and I will keep going. 00:39 He has a post graduate degree on church state studies 00:43 from Baylor University in Waco Texas 00:46 and also heads up religious liberty 00:48 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the northwest. 00:51 I know we're gonna have a great discussion, Greg. 00:54 There's many things we can talk about. 00:56 You know, the headlines 00:58 are just screaming religious liberty 00:59 and church state issues nowadays. 01:03 But let's go back to something that 01:04 really goes back to what you hear about 01:07 a lot in Middle East now, the crusades, just war theory. 01:11 Is that coming back to haunt is? 01:13 Is that part of the public discussion there? 01:15 Yes, it is, Lincoln. 01:17 We are seeing Pope Francis and President Obama 01:20 share a similar viewpoint 01:22 based upon the theories of Thomas 01:25 Aquinas and St. Augustine and they are just war theories 01:29 which actually guides catholic thoughts on war. 01:33 And what's interesting is President Obama 01:36 is a huge student of just war theory 01:39 and especially the doctrine of humanitarian intervention. 01:42 Now let me just put it in context. 01:44 Augustine of Hippo that was about 300 AD 01:48 and that's very interesting to me 01:49 even though Christians early on immediately 01:52 after Christ's death and resurrection 01:55 used to require soldiers 01:56 to leave the military by the 300 AD 01:59 they were already getting into states graft 02:02 and he could say that we can have just war 02:07 as long as it establish a certain criteria. 02:10 Then the second one with Augustine 02:12 that was about 1200 though the third-- 02:15 Aquinas. 02:16 Thomas Aquinas. 02:17 That was about the year 1300 02:19 which is right smack in the middle 02:21 or maybe a little bit toward the end of the crusades. 02:25 So I don't think you can separate the causality 02:28 from the theory that was developed. 02:30 Well, just a convenience wasn't it? 02:31 Yeah, Thomas Aquinas was a interesting fellow 02:34 because he was both a legal theorist 02:38 as well as a theologian. 02:40 And his theory on just war 02:44 really has affected many a leader 02:50 and general throughout history. 02:53 What the-- 02:55 Well, particularly though the middle ages 02:57 when the Roman Catholic church had such a dominant role 03:01 any state wanting to go to war has to satisfy these criteria 03:05 and get the approval of the church, right. 03:07 Yes, there is a book out by Stephen Carter, 03:09 he is the nations in the United States 03:13 the nations leading just war legal expert 03:16 at Yale University 03:18 and in the entire United States he is number one. 03:20 He is an African American, he is very preeminent, 03:25 predominant, I mean, a very big legal scholar 03:30 in the country and recognized as such. 03:32 But his book on Obama's wars 03:36 and I forget the name of the book, the title 03:39 but he talks about President's Obama's 03:42 just war theories and where he gets it from. 03:45 Based on his speeches 03:46 and other writings and other stuff 03:49 the humanitarian intervention doctrine is most, 03:52 and it is funny because he doesn't use it much 03:54 but he like an Iraq when Christians were threatened 03:57 they very small sect up in northern Iraq near-- 04:04 The Yazidi's. The courage village is-- 04:05 This could be Yazidi. 04:07 Yeah, they were gonna be slaughter by ISIS 04:09 and Obama, president Obama decided 04:11 to send there an air strikes 04:13 and limited amount of troops to rescue them. 04:17 All right, now that seems too little too late mind you 04:20 but it lowers the threshold of what is defined 04:25 as a national interest of United States. 04:27 Meaning that it says the United States 04:29 can go in anywhere at anytime at any country 04:32 and intervene unlike George W. Bush 04:35 who even though we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan 04:37 which seems monumental it is, 04:40 but it had a very carefully defined national interest 04:43 because it was attacked on 9/11. 04:45 The difference with George Bush they were preemptive wars. 04:48 Yes, where are this humanitarian intervention 04:50 is if any group of sect is being prosecuted 04:54 United States now has a national interest "right" 04:57 under President's Obama's theory 04:59 which is even more invasive than what President Bush has. 05:03 Now it hasn't been unleashed 05:05 but its poised to be unleashed because now Pope Francis 05:09 who is, you know, largely a peace pope 05:12 seems to be more and more advocating a defensive war 05:20 against ISIS to literally wipe it out 05:23 because Christians are being prosecuted in the Middle East. 05:26 And this is reality. 05:27 I mean, in many programs on this secular series 05:32 we've been talking about the unprecedented persecution 05:35 of Christians can only be equaled 05:37 by the early days of the Roman persecution 05:40 under the Diocletian and so on. 05:43 This is something unique but to bring back 05:46 the just war theory as you and I, 05:48 I'm sure agree there is a whole kettle of fish here that 05:51 we probably are not quite ready for I think. 05:54 Well, the whole just war theory 05:56 and the whole idea of humanitarian intervention 05:58 is really a backdoor approach, 06:00 a very subtle approach to crusade. 06:03 The idea, notion of crusade 06:05 and restoring that out of necessity. 06:07 Well, I remember Urban 06:09 when he declared the first crusade, 06:10 God wills it, God wills it. 06:11 Well, and it seems that-- Pope Francis 06:13 seems to be going on this similar preaching tours 06:17 not only in a diplomatic way 06:19 but to line up nations both in Turkey, Egypt. 06:23 He isn't more than anybody, more than national leaders, 06:28 especially more than President Obama 06:30 to speak to Erdogan in Turkey, 06:33 Sisi, General Sisi is the president of Egypt 06:36 and in Jordon with President Hussein, 06:39 King Hussein to align the Arab league to come-- 06:43 King Abdullah. King Abdullah. 06:45 Well, yes. 06:47 The son of Hussein. 06:50 Yes, he is Abdullah. Yeah, okay. 06:52 And to come together with the Arab league 06:55 to unite Saudi Arabia, all these Sunni forces 06:59 to unite behind not only US interest 07:03 but Vatican interest. 07:04 And now what is Saudi Arabia doing 07:06 along with other Sunni counties with Egypt, Turkey-- 07:09 Intervening in Yemen. 07:11 They are coming together to intervene Yemen 07:12 which is a fascinating thing because Pope Francis 07:17 has been meeting with them very strongly 07:19 and frequently to say, hey, 07:22 we have got to align our interest together. 07:25 By the way the-- relax if I didn't mention this. 07:30 There was a lot of discussion when the Arab Spring broke up. 07:32 Maybe because out of a more day and night shift 07:36 but I saw this from the beginning. 07:37 This is the play out of the so called Arab Spring. 07:41 Let me ask you a leading question 07:42 and it might give you a chance to explain this. 07:45 Is there a Protestant just war theory? 07:48 Oh, yes. Especially when it comes-- 07:49 Where does it come from though? 07:51 Well, it comes in dealing in its Zionism 07:56 and its Zionist philosophy, its all about Israel 08:00 and its all about propping up Israel 08:02 because its Israel and United States against-- 08:07 Well, I think what you are saying 08:08 is that the religious right, because of there is eschatology 08:12 of more and more linking with the interest of Israel 08:16 and sort of seeing the big showdown there 08:18 and they were involving just war theory. 08:21 But my point is the just war theory 08:23 even when used by Protesting 08:25 is in lately a Roman Catholic doctrine 08:27 and its sort of odd to me that the Protestant world 08:31 doesn't see this and there was a time 08:33 when they didn't agree with this. 08:34 But right now it has-- 08:36 Because it was used in the remember 08:37 the crusades against the Albigensian's and so on. 08:39 Protestant decedents. 08:41 But its interesting as a Catholic Church 08:43 and the pope, Pope Francis 08:45 is following through in a strict sense 08:48 the humanitarian intervention doctrine 08:51 based on the just war theory. 08:53 And that is to use every diplomatic means. 08:55 It started with St. Augustine 08:58 when the Donatus in North Africa 09:00 in the mid 300s AD 09:04 were resisting the catholic church 09:08 and the whole idea of conversion 09:11 and what that standard was. 09:16 Augustine said, hey, 09:18 you know, we are gonna use every diplomatic mean, 09:20 shepherds to try to bring them around 09:22 but if that fails then the sword of the state 09:26 must go in and intervene and take care of business. 09:31 I was waiting for you to get to that. 09:32 Yeah. 09:34 Has it crust your mind that at the fringes at least 09:37 or at the maybe not the fringe, 09:39 the extreme application of this is not a lot of difference 09:43 between just war theory as proposed 09:45 in this case by a Christian dominant power 09:49 and the Jihadi principle advance play Islam. 09:53 Its interesting you should bring that up, Lincoln, 09:55 because when you look at the Christian right 09:58 and many in that political persuasion 10:02 which you discover is they say, we are Christian nation 10:06 and we should be a Christian nation by law, 10:07 that's what the constitution founders intended. 10:10 A theocracy, I mean, I was in Montana testifying 10:14 on the State Religious Freedom Restoration Act 10:17 which was a bad bill. 10:19 It would have been good 10:20 if they had accepted our amendments to it. 10:22 But I had one representative say 10:24 we are a Christian nation 10:26 and we should be a Christian nation by law 10:28 and even the bill sponsor pounded his Bible 10:30 on the podium in testifying to his own bill saying 10:34 we need this because the founders 10:37 were godly people and we are Christian nation. 10:39 But that's not much different than saying, 10:41 oh, we fear Sharia law from Muslims. 10:44 I mean, it's the same thing. 10:45 And it's a very small step from being a Christian nation 10:48 representing God's will on this earth 10:50 to advancing it if necessary by the sword. 10:53 That proof along. Because all comers. 10:55 That's proof alone that the constitution founds 10:57 never intended such 10:59 with the constitutional separation of church and state 11:01 and if you exercise a religion. 11:02 I just-- I think people who advocate 11:04 for such have no clue what they are talking about. 11:07 Well, even worse, they may have a clue 11:09 and then we should be aware of. 11:11 We will back after a short break 11:13 to continue this discussion, just war theory. |
Revised 2015-09-03