Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is the program
brining you discussion,
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news, views and
up-to-date information
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on religious liberty
events around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this program,
well, my friend Greg Hamilton.
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President of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association
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and I will keep going.
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He has a post graduate
degree on church state studies
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from Baylor
University in Waco Texas
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and also heads
up religious liberty
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for the Seventh-day Adventist
Church in the northwest.
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I know we're gonna have
a great discussion, Greg.
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There's many
things we can talk about.
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You know, the headlines
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are just
screaming religious liberty
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and church
state issues nowadays.
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But let's go
back to something that
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really goes back
to what you hear about
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a lot in Middle East now,
the crusades, just war theory.
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Is that coming back to haunt is?
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Is that part of the
public discussion there?
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Yes, it is, Lincoln.
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We are seeing Pope
Francis and President Obama
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share a similar viewpoint
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based upon the
theories of Thomas
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Aquinas and St. Augustine
and they are just war theories
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which actually guides
catholic thoughts on war.
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And what's
interesting is President Obama
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is a huge student
of just war theory
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and especially the doctrine
of humanitarian intervention.
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Now let me just
put it in context.
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Augustine of Hippo
that was about 300 AD
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and that's very
interesting to me
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even though
Christians early on immediately
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after Christ's
death and resurrection
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used to require soldiers
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to leave the
military by the 300 AD
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they were already
getting into states graft
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and he could say
that we can have just war
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as long as it
establish a certain criteria.
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Then the second
one with Augustine
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that was about
1200 though the third--
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Aquinas.
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Thomas Aquinas.
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That was about the year 1300
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which is right
smack in the middle
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or maybe a little bit
toward the end of the crusades.
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So I don't think you
can separate the causality
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from the theory
that was developed.
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Well, just a
convenience wasn't it?
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Yeah, Thomas Aquinas
was a interesting fellow
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because he was
both a legal theorist
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as well as a theologian.
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And his theory on just war
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really has
affected many a leader
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and general throughout history.
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What the--
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Well, particularly
though the middle ages
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when the Roman Catholic
church had such a dominant role
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any state wanting to go to war
has to satisfy these criteria
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and get the approval
of the church, right.
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Yes, there is a book
out by Stephen Carter,
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he is the nations
in the United States
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the nations leading
just war legal expert
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at Yale University
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and in the entire
United States he is number one.
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He is an African
American, he is very preeminent,
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predominant, I mean,
a very big legal scholar
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in the country and
recognized as such.
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But his book on Obama's wars
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and I forget the name
of the book, the title
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but he talks about
President's Obama's
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just war theories and
where he gets it from.
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Based on his speeches
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and other
writings and other stuff
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the humanitarian
intervention doctrine is most,
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and it is funny
because he doesn't use it much
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but he like an Iraq when
Christians were threatened
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they very small sect
up in northern Iraq near--
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The Yazidi's. The
courage village is--
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This could be Yazidi.
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Yeah, they were
gonna be slaughter by ISIS
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and Obama,
president Obama decided
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to send there an air strikes
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and limited amount of
troops to rescue them.
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All right, now that seems
too little too late mind you
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but it lowers the
threshold of what is defined
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as a national
interest of United States.
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Meaning that it
says the United States
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can go in anywhere at
anytime at any country
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and intervene
unlike George W. Bush
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who even though we
invaded Iraq and Afghanistan
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which seems monumental it is,
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but it had a very carefully
defined national interest
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because it was attacked on 9/11.
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The difference with George
Bush they were preemptive wars.
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Yes, where are this
humanitarian intervention
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is if any group of
sect is being prosecuted
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United States now has a
national interest "right"
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under President's Obama's theory
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which is even more invasive
than what President Bush has.
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Now it hasn't been unleashed
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but its poised to be unleashed
because now Pope Francis
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who is, you know,
largely a peace pope
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seems to be more and more
advocating a defensive war
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against ISIS to
literally wipe it out
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because Christians are being
prosecuted in the Middle East.
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And this is reality.
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I mean, in many
programs on this secular series
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we've been talking about
the unprecedented persecution
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of Christians
can only be equaled
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by the early days of
the Roman persecution
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under the Diocletian and so on.
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This is something
unique but to bring back
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the just war
theory as you and I,
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I'm sure agree there is a
whole kettle of fish here that
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we probably are not
quite ready for I think.
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Well, the whole just war theory
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and the whole idea of
humanitarian intervention
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is really a backdoor approach,
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a very subtle
approach to crusade.
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The idea, notion of crusade
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and restoring
that out of necessity.
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Well, I remember Urban
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when he declared
the first crusade,
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God wills it, God wills it.
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Well, and it seems
that-- Pope Francis
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seems to be going on
this similar preaching tours
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not only in a diplomatic way
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but to line up
nations both in Turkey, Egypt.
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He isn't more than anybody,
more than national leaders,
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especially more
than President Obama
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to speak to Erdogan in Turkey,
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Sisi, General Sisi is
the president of Egypt
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and in Jordon
with President Hussein,
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King Hussein to align
the Arab league to come--
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King Abdullah. King Abdullah.
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Well, yes.
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The son of Hussein.
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Yes, he is Abdullah. Yeah, okay.
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And to come
together with the Arab league
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to unite Saudi
Arabia, all these Sunni forces
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to unite behind
not only US interest
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but Vatican interest.
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And now what is
Saudi Arabia doing
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along with other Sunni
counties with Egypt, Turkey--
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Intervening in Yemen.
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They are coming
together to intervene Yemen
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which is a fascinating
thing because Pope Francis
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has been meeting
with them very strongly
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and frequently to say, hey,
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we have got to align
our interest together.
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By the way the-- relax
if I didn't mention this.
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There was a lot of discussion
when the Arab Spring broke up.
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Maybe because out of a
more day and night shift
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but I saw this
from the beginning.
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This is the play out of
the so called Arab Spring.
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Let me ask you
a leading question
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and it might give you
a chance to explain this.
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Is there a
Protestant just war theory?
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Oh, yes.
Especially when it comes--
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Where does it come from though?
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Well, it comes in
dealing in its Zionism
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and its Zionist
philosophy, its all about Israel
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and its all about
propping up Israel
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because its Israel and
United States against--
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Well, I think
what you are saying
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is that the religious right,
because of there is eschatology
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of more and more linking
with the interest of Israel
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and sort of seeing
the big showdown there
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and they were
involving just war theory.
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But my point is
the just war theory
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even when used by Protesting
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is in lately a
Roman Catholic doctrine
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and its sort of odd to
me that the Protestant world
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doesn't see this
and there was a time
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when they
didn't agree with this.
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But right now it has--
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Because it was
used in the remember
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the crusades against
the Albigensian's and so on.
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Protestant decedents.
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But its interesting
as a Catholic Church
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and the pope, Pope Francis
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is following
through in a strict sense
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the humanitarian
intervention doctrine
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based on the just war theory.
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And that is to use
every diplomatic means.
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It started with St. Augustine
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when the Donatus in North Africa
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in the mid 300s AD
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were resisting
the catholic church
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and the whole idea of conversion
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and what that standard was.
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Augustine said, hey,
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you know, we are gonna
use every diplomatic mean,
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shepherds to try
to bring them around
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but if that fails
then the sword of the state
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must go in and intervene
and take care of business.
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I was waiting for
you to get to that.
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Yeah.
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Has it crust your mind
that at the fringes at least
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or at the maybe not the fringe,
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the extreme application of
this is not a lot of difference
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between just war
theory as proposed
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in this case by a
Christian dominant power
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and the Jihadi
principle advance play Islam.
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Its interesting you
should bring that up, Lincoln,
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because when you look
at the Christian right
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and many in that
political persuasion
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which you discover is they
say, we are Christian nation
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and we should be a
Christian nation by law,
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that's what the
constitution founders intended.
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A theocracy, I mean, I
was in Montana testifying
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on the State Religious
Freedom Restoration Act
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which was a bad bill.
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It would have been good
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if they had accepted
our amendments to it.
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But I had one representative say
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we are a Christian nation
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and we should be a
Christian nation by law
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and even the bill
sponsor pounded his Bible
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on the podium in testifying
to his own bill saying
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we need this
because the founders
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were godly people and
we are Christian nation.
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But that's not much
different than saying,
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oh, we fear
Sharia law from Muslims.
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I mean, it's the same thing.
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And it's a very small step
from being a Christian nation
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representing
God's will on this earth
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to advancing it if
necessary by the sword.
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That proof along.
Because all comers.
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That's proof alone
that the constitution founds
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never intended such
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with the constitutional
separation of church and state
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and if you exercise a religion.
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I just-- I think
people who advocate
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for such have no clue
what they are talking about.
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Well, even worse,
they may have a clue
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and then we should be aware of.
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We will back after a short break
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to continue this
discussion, just war theory.
00:11:13.20\00:11:16.50