Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Kim Peckham
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000278B
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00:03 Welcome back to "Liberty Insider."
00:05 After a short break with our mental juices 00:08 are rejuvenated and we want to rejoin the discussion 00:10 that started with talking about ISIL 00:13 in the Middle East and what's going on there? 00:17 Well, you know, we got a lot of violence going on there, 00:19 it kind of makes me wonder about these many people 00:23 are accusing religion of making the world 00:25 a worse place to live. 00:28 Christopher Hitchens being one that wrote 00:30 the best selling book about that and-- 00:32 That is called "God is Not Great." 00:34 Yeah. 00:35 Which was, you know, 00:37 pretty much in the face of people who believe otherwise 00:40 and they are gonna be pointing at this 00:42 and saying look, 00:43 people who care about God make the world 00:47 a dangerous place. 00:49 It's much better if you kind of just-- 00:52 Boy, I listen to a lot of Christopher Hitchens debates 00:55 and they were always stimulating. 00:58 I don't remember seeing him bested by anybody. 01:02 There were two cases where I don't think he won per say 01:09 but it was probably a draw with Tony Blair 01:13 and Al Sharpton, crazy or not. 01:16 And what both of them invoked 01:18 and they would debate this point 01:20 on whether Christianity is of any value. 01:22 They were talking about Islam 01:27 where they got the better of him 01:29 is they didn't join on his level. 01:31 They kept it on the level of what Christianity 01:33 and what faith had done for them. 01:36 And I believe myself that's the power of Christian witness 01:41 and as I read "Acts of the Apostles" 01:43 that's why Christianity moved ahead so quickly. 01:46 It was the undeniable story. 01:49 You know, Jesus Christ has risen from the dead 01:51 and He has changed my life. 01:52 I was once this and I have done-- 01:54 I mean, that's power, right. 01:55 But you start to give 01:56 a theological argument or worse, 01:58 you know, pull out your sword 01:59 and say believe it or else trouble. 02:01 And both Tony Blair and Al Sharpton kept it 02:06 on a spiritual level and so it was-- 02:08 I was proud of how they represented their faith 02:10 but generally 02:12 Christopher Hitchens just would, 02:14 you know, be pulling it one arrow after another 02:17 of argument against his historical Christianity 02:20 and all the harms that its given 02:22 where I think he was unfair 02:23 and he wouldn't give any ground on this, 02:26 you know, secular dictatorships and things like communism 02:30 and I have done their fair share of mischief in the world 02:32 and he was always glossing over that. 02:36 But that side which is the real weakness 02:39 there is no question that in history 02:41 religion has been responsible directly or for empowering 02:46 or agitating towards some horrendous things. 02:50 But that's to be expected when Christianity is dealing 02:53 with the most visceral elements of human existence 02:56 and appealing to the divine and then when you have people 02:59 get a little off kilter on that 03:02 and there is some opposition to that faith 03:04 it isn't just an opposition from another human being, 03:06 its someone here that is not connected with the divine 03:09 like you so they are the other Satan-- 03:14 you know evil force. 03:16 So it kicks in an extra element of violence 03:21 and religious war just doesn't stop. 03:26 Most wars, you know, 03:27 they want this hill or them want this resource 03:30 and when they get it its over. 03:32 But religious war it doesn't stop generally 03:34 until you've destroyed the existential threat. 03:38 So you are saying like because we are appealing 03:40 to a higher authority 03:42 that makes the stakes higher and more-- 03:44 It does-- And it comforts. 03:46 At most people are not saying its always justified 03:48 because as Abraham Lincoln says, 03:50 you know, who can guarantee they are really on God side 03:53 but the true religion is to always make that assumption. 03:58 And you know, you and I can sit here 04:00 and we read the New Testament and we see Jesus 04:04 as a Revelation of God and we order our lives on that. 04:06 We are not troubled by anything else 04:08 but its worth remembering that, 04:11 you know, the Muslim things the same on Muhammad 04:15 and his instructions by-- 04:17 well, via Muhammad but from Gabriel. 04:21 You know, they've got the straight line to heaven 04:22 and other faiths or Sikhs tend to think the same way. 04:27 So but the answer is not to remove religion 04:30 because I think its to integral with human thinking. 04:35 There's been some scientific studies lately 04:37 that I think tend to be more philosophical scientific 04:40 but they can argue that the very way our brain works 04:43 is sort to set up to believe in God 04:45 or which is first that we believe in God 04:48 because He is so evident or our brain is-- 04:53 needs a God 04:54 but its part and parcel of our human existence 04:58 to operate on that level. 05:00 And so you know, showed of some sort 05:03 of communist dictatorship or George Orwell's lockdown 05:07 where you can't even think we have to reconcile 05:10 with it not remove it. 05:13 Well, do we have no response to this accusation 05:16 that the fact that we believe is making us 05:20 more dangerous people against God's people? 05:22 No, well, we have a response 05:24 but I think it's a weak argument 05:25 because its just a plain fact of history that, 05:27 you know, that the Pope of Rome 05:30 unsighted the Christian kings of Europe to go 05:33 and attack the holy land. 05:35 It's just-- 05:37 Well, now I notice in these arguments about religion 05:40 causes more violence but there seem to be for always 05:44 to the same two or three incidents. 05:47 You have the crusades, 05:49 they always bring up the crusades, 05:51 they always bring up Belfast in Ireland. 05:54 Oh, there is plenty of over the on the smallest stage. 05:58 But you know, right now in India and Pakistan 06:02 they are just distressingly common incidents where, 06:06 you know, this Christian, Muslim, or Hindu village, 06:09 you know, just across the road 06:12 or the little hill from each other, 06:14 they each regard the other as sort of the other. 06:18 Don't like their religion and as people are practicing-- 06:21 you know, they are all but monkeys 06:23 and then some little incident happens 06:25 and bam suddenly the crowd 06:26 from this village goes over there 06:28 and just kills 100 people. 06:29 It happens all the time. 06:31 And its just because of religion 06:32 or there's tribalism in the half world 06:34 and the cruelest thing going on. 06:36 I don't know if you be listening to me 06:37 over just think alike. 06:38 Yeah, there's an element of tribalism 06:40 and this is what I, what I, what I think is happening. 06:43 In the post communist era or the post World War II, 06:47 pre World War III well, 06:49 we live in I think communism, 06:53 capitalism, nationalism, imperialism 07:01 I think I repeated that. 07:02 Did you get all the ism's in there, Lincoln? 07:03 These sort of things have worked them 07:05 so as out they don't have high creditable. 07:07 And I think the world is more and more being restructured 07:10 and the battle lines drawn on what is, 07:13 at first the tribal identity 07:15 and sometimes that's pure ethnicity. 07:19 But it can carry with that 07:21 and sometimes enlarge you get more than 07:23 just the bloodlines of the tribes 07:26 is its religious identity 07:29 and that's what I see it work and its very visceral 07:33 and very dangerous. 07:35 So it almost has nothing to do with whether the people, 07:37 the individuals themselves are religious. 07:39 If they have any kind of relationship to their God 07:42 its more of their identity just like, 07:44 you know, I'm a Dallas Mavericks fan. 07:47 And you are coming it what I thought about long 07:49 and harden the way I express it 07:51 even at religious liberty conferences 07:53 and I did it for effectiveness but I'm more and more 07:55 believe my own idea or you know, 07:57 I like to express it this way. 07:59 The way I put it there is way too much religion in the world, 08:03 way too much religion but not enough spirituality. 08:08 Religious dogma and identity and aspirations 08:12 and structure and, you know, 08:14 organize in the sense of hierarchies 08:18 and all the rest can be very problematic. 08:21 Easily leads mankind into conflicts and bigotry 08:25 and so on but its lessened to a fantastic extent 08:30 and more closely fulfills-- 08:32 in our case what Jesus said in the gospels 08:34 when they had endurance to that faith internalize it 08:38 and have those higher spiritual values 08:41 that except in rare cases all religion calls people 08:44 to like self sacrifice, concern to your fellowman. 08:48 If religion is categorized by that its fine 08:51 but religion that has all structure 08:53 and all identity stares people like sheep the slaughter 09:00 to conflict fighting and alienations 09:03 and so on and we are in that world at the moment. 09:06 So almost like if you have like a-- 09:07 The genie is out of the bottle, sorry to interrupt 09:09 but we backed to the religious rivalries 09:11 that really more characterize the middle ages. 09:15 If you take God out of the religion in this discussion 09:17 then its basically just politics 09:20 and its not really different 09:21 from say they are false-- 09:23 It is fake politics yes, because yes, absolutely. 09:24 The communism or anything else would be on the same category. 09:28 You and I think very much a like 09:30 because there is an easy way to look at communism, 09:32 it was the religion of man. 09:34 Communism actually aped structurally 09:37 most of the great religions. 09:39 And a pretty dangerous religion. 09:40 And might same look like. 09:42 As we look back in history like the great, 09:43 great genocides and holocaust 09:49 happened in Russia 09:51 under Stalin and Mao 09:54 so I think it's a poor comparison to the conflicts 10:01 of Christianity to get involved in-- 10:03 Now, hold on, I'm not Christopher Hitchens. 10:06 I think Christopher Hitchens overstated 10:07 this is what I'm saying 10:09 and he was a little too protective 10:11 of the secularist abuses 10:15 but what he said on religion is true as far as it goes 10:19 but he was never giving it the benefit on spirituality, 10:22 on true faith. 10:26 Yeah and I think we need to look 10:28 at our personal experience and what Christians have done 10:30 and they will see that Christianity has done 10:34 a lot for individuals, done a lot for nations 10:36 and made the world a better place in a lot of ways. 10:43 There is a poem by William Butler Yeats 10:45 called the Second Coming and in it he decries the fact 10:48 as he puts it that the worst, 10:52 a full of passionate intensity 10:55 while the best lack all conviction. 10:58 As I look at what's happening in the Middle East 11:01 in general and with ISIS in particular it seems 11:05 like passionate intensity is the worst 11:08 of what we are getting. 11:10 It's worth remembering that this religious aberration 11:14 is a more than religion. 11:16 There are GIA political changes that date back 11:19 at the very least of World War I 11:21 and the dislocation of whole peoples by false borders. 11:26 But as I look at this I think the real threat 11:29 and the real challenge is at home, 11:32 the young men and women who have been attracted 11:34 by this overseas adventure. 11:38 Why are they attracted and what is to come next? 11:43 This is the challenge 11:45 and with God's help and a commitment-- 11:47 We're gonna do it again. 11:48 Yeah, well, look screen went blank 11:49 so I just spoke because I was-- 11:51 I thank you, you were looking at the monitor and-- 11:54 I'm. I'm sorry, yeah. 11:56 Yeah. Okay. 11:59 No, problem just watch the monitor out and see-- 12:02 Is that why I did it. That's what you have been. 12:05 We can tell you, your eyes were shifted over there. 12:10 I think its been too long since I've come in, 12:12 I forgotten the retake 12:14 and you changed a few things a little here so-- 12:15 That's okay, yeah. 12:17 So just look right into here, okay. 12:18 Yeah, I should know that. 12:20 Eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two. 12:27 There is a poem by William Butler Yeats 12:29 called the Second Coming and in it he decries the fact 12:33 as he puts it that the worst, a full of passionate intensity 12:37 while the best lack all conviction. 12:41 I think we are seeing a little bit of this at work 12:44 in what's happening in the Middle East 12:47 and in particular with ISIL, 12:50 young people from all over the world 12:53 disaffected for any number of reasons, 12:55 not just because of their religious differences 12:57 but being attracted to this grand adventure 12:59 in the desert with passionate intensity. 13:04 I think somehow in our cultures, 13:07 in our western societies we need to encourage the best, 13:12 the best of religion. 13:13 Religious view points that uplift the soul. 13:17 That fulfill the hunger that individuals 13:20 clearly have for what only God can give something 13:24 that can never be satisfied by violence and sword. 13:28 And these adventures of man to be sure 13:31 these young people are attracted 13:32 to GIA political change. 13:34 The world is full of that. 13:36 What it really needs to be full of is spirituality, 13:40 tolerance, understanding, 13:42 religious freedom, kindness. 13:46 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2015-09-03